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Legality of CCW in privately owned businesses with no 30.06 signage

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  • dwsintxs

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    Recently there's been the media focus on Toby Keith and his restaurants, and he is (apparently) saying that they forbid guns in their restaurants.

    When I took my CHL class (don't have my plastic yet, so I'm not carrying) the instructor said that the gunbuster signage (and various other versions of the 30.06 signs with incorrect verbiage) is legall unenforcable.

    However, I also remember the CHL instructor saying that if a business owner verbally tells you that he doesn't allow guns, then you can't carry inside, even if you have a CHL.

    So, I am either misunderstanding something here, or just not clear on the mechanics of how a business owner can inform patrons of the business that guns aren't allowed.

    If a restaurant owner posts a 'gunbuster' sign on the door, isn't that an act of informing CHL'ers that they can't carry in that owners establishment? Or does it have to be face to face, verbally?

    Or, have I completely misunderstood everything? LOL

    Things like this are good to know before starting to carry, obviously. I want to be legal.

    Thanks in advance for helping a newbie understand.
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    txinvestigator

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    The law says you commit an offense if you carry a handgun on the property of another without consent, AND you were either given notice that entry with a concealed handun was forbidden, OR you remained on the property after being given notice that remaining with your concealed handgun was forbidden.

    In this law, penal code 30.06, the word "notice" is defined as oral or written communication. Oral communication is not defined, so if someone with apparent authority to act for the owner, or the owner, tells you you cannot carry, then you commit an offense if you then enter or if you fail to leave if you are already there.

    Written communication IS defined. It is a card or document with specific language, normally called 30.06 language, or a sign posted on the property that meets the specific requirements.

    So let's look at a ghost busters sign posted at Joes Book Store. You do not know Joe, and you do not have his consent. Is the ghostbusters sign oral communication? No. Is it "written communication"? To know if the sign is written communication we ask ourselves this question, is it a card or other document with specific language? No. Is it a sign posted on the property? No

    So if you carry inside do you violate 30.06.
     
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    coachrick

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    If I'm understanding the term 'gunbusters' sign, it applies to non-CHL holders in places that serve alcohol. Darned near meaningless, I reckon, since it adds nothing to the law already in place regarding non-CHL holders carrying a concealed weapon.
     

    txinvestigator

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    If I'm understanding the term 'gunbusters' sign, it applies to non-CHL holders in places that serve alcohol. Darned near meaningless, I reckon, since it adds nothing to the law already in place regarding non-CHL holders carrying a concealed weapon.

    No, the ghostbusters sign is the picture of a gun with a circle around it and a slash through the gun.
     

    dwsintxs

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    No, the ghostbusters sign is the picture of a gun with a circle around it and a slash through the gun -

    Correct, this is what our CHL instructor called it, and he too, said it is meaningless.

    I'd like to add - my 'confusion' regarding this Toby Keith restaurant brouhaha, is that it's a private business, and he HAS made it publicly known that guns are not allowed in his properties/businesses, but let's say he DOESN'T post the 30.06 sign, and there is NO signage, written or otherwise saying guns not allowed. . . is he legal in forbidding CHL'ers to enter carrying?

    Or, this scenario . . .
    he HAS made it publicly known that guns are not allowed in his properties/businesses, but DOES post a gunbusters sign, or other (non 30.06) signage. . . 'guns not allowed' etc. Are CHL'ers allowed to carry inside?

    Still confused. LOL

     

    coachrick

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    No, the ghostbusters sign is the picture of a gun with a circle around it and a slash through the gun.

    Coulda sworn I saw that symbol superimposed over the text about 'unlicensed carry of a weapon in this establishment' blah, blah, blah...the one in nearly every fast casual restaurant that serves alcohol. Maybe I've never seen an actual gunbusters sign? I gotta get out more ;)
     

    txinvestigator

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    You only receive notice one of three ways;

    1. ANY verbal notice. Have you received verbal notice?

    2. A card or document with specific language? Have you received one of those?

    3. A sign posted on the property that meets the specific requirments. Does a ghostbusters sign meet that? Would a ghostbusters sign make it unlawful for you to carry there.
     

    dwsintxs

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    I don't know Toby Keith and have never heard him say no carry. So has he given me notice?

    Good point! As far as the Toby Keith restaurants, it's a moot point with me, because I ate there once and the food and service sucked.

    But I was just trying to apply those circumstances to any business owner's notice of no guns allowed, and understand the law more clearly.
     

    txinvestigator

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    Coulda sworn I saw that symbol superimposed over the text about 'unlicensed carry of a weapon in this establishment' blah, blah, blah...the one in nearly every fast casual restaurant that serves alcohol. Maybe I've never seen an actual gunbusters sign? I gotta get out more ;)

    I suppose a business could superimpose the ghostbusters over the "unlicensed possession" sign, but it is not typical. The "unlicensed possession" sign is required in all places that sell alcohol and are not 51%
     

    txinvestigator

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    Good point! As far as the Toby Keith restaurants, it's a moot point with me, because I ate there once and the food and service sucked.

    But I was just trying to apply those circumstances to any business owner's notice of no guns allowed, and understand the law more clearly.

    Hope I was able to help.
     

    karlac

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    Dash Riprock

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    Coulda sworn I saw that symbol superimposed over the text about 'unlicensed carry of a weapon in this establishment' blah, blah, blah...the one in nearly every fast casual restaurant that serves alcohol. Maybe I've never seen an actual gunbusters sign? I gotta get out more ;)

    I've never seen an "Unlicensed carry" sign with a gunbusters symbol superimposed on it. Maybe they had a separate gunbusters sign? Also, I would think that since the "unlicensed carry" and the "51%" signs are dictated by the TABC, the licensee would not be allowed to alter it in any way, but that's just speculation on my part.

    With regard to Toby Keith and his restaurants, does he even have one in Texas? The story I heard was that the restaurant in question was in Virginia so 30.06 wouldn't apply - it would be whatever Virginia requires, and they may or may not recognize a gunbuster sign as valid notice.
     

    Dash Riprock

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    No, the ghostbusters sign is the picture of a gun with a circle around it and a slash through the gun.

    I think for purposes of these discussions it could also be any signage to the effect of "No guns allowed" that doesn't conform to 30.06. They are meaningless because unless you are licensed, you aren't supposed to be carrying a gun anyway and if you are licensed, only a 30.06 compliant sign is valid (notwithstanding oral notice as already discussed).
     

    Dash Riprock

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    One more thing - if you ever see a gunbuster or otherwise non-compliant sign, please do not point out to the business owner that it's not enforceable. If he or she is really anti-gun, then they'll tell you guns aren't allowed and you'll have been given notice, or they'll educate themselves and post a proper sign and ruin it for the rest of us.

    I prefer to believe that the business owner knows the law and posts a gunbuster with full knowledge that it's not enforceable, to keep ignorant anti's happy.

    In any event, it's not your job to make sure he or she knows the law. Keep your mouth shut.

    All things considered, even here in liberal whacko central Austin, you really don't see too many gunbuster signs (or 30.06 signs, for that matter) and the ones you do see are typically on chains that are headquartered out of state. Local or Texas based businesses don't typically post anything.
     

    benenglish

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    I prefer to believe that the business owner knows the law and posts a gunbuster with full knowledge that it's not enforceable, to keep ignorant anti's happy.
    That is precisely what I choose to believe, too. Seems awfully logical to me.
     

    Kennydale

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    I was specifically told that the TEXAS 30.06 sign and the TABC 51% signs are the only enforceable signs used in Texas. I have shopped in stores carrying my EDC that have had the SIMPLE NO GUNS ALLOWED. I recently went to an Asian mall that had the sign on the door that said NO GUNS- NO POP POP. What the heck does that mean anyway. Inside the store i went had the basic no unlicensed carry signage. The CHL class I took was very specific about what no gun signs you can and can't ignore. 30.06.jpg 30-06.jpg 51percent.jpg
     

    Glockster69

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    ^^ Hard to tell from the pictures but neither of those 30.06 signs appear legit.


    ETA: does not appear to be 1" high lettering.
     
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    txinvestigator

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    I was specifically told that the TEXAS 30.06 sign and the TABC 51% signs are the only enforceable signs used in Texas. I have shopped in stores carrying my EDC that have had the SIMPLE NO GUNS ALLOWED. I recently went to an Asian mall that had the sign on the door that said NO GUNS- NO POP POP. What the heck does that mean anyway. Inside the store i went had the basic no unlicensed carry signage. The CHL class I took was very specific about what no gun signs you can and can't ignore. View attachment 25859 View attachment 25860 View attachment 25861

    Allow me to translate "no pop pop". In English it means "no pew pew".
     
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