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Less Lethal Alternatives, Legal with CHL?

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  • scobech

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    Good luck in court....
    Let's hope it doesn't come to that! :)
    My drivers license doesn't allow me to drive a vehicle not legal for the street, on the street.
    A club is legal; carrying it is not under 46.02.
    A CHL doesn't allow you to carry a weapon other than a handgun and make it legal. You're picking out 2 small pieces and trying to interpret the whole thing. If those 2 pieces aren't clear to you, you have to read the rest to clarify supporting matter.
    Each of those sections stands on its own; that's why they're so repetitive.
    Think about this, to carry a club requires certain criteria to be met. A CHL doesn't waive all that and make it OK.
    The CHL doesn't; 46.15 does.
    No case law is needed, it is well written law.
    Very well written. Also very new and not interpreted yet. Got to find out what the meaning of 'is' is!

    Gotta go, good conversation, Thanks.
    DK Firearms
     

    JKTex

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    To the other part of the discussion, the part that's not gone crazy yet....

    I think having something else is a good idea. Of course it would have to be something legal. I have a Surefire Exec. Defender that's an awesome little light, but also hard anodized and has what I call flesh removers on both ends.

    If blinding them with it, and it will do that in daylight too, doesn't stop and neutralize the BG, taking part of his face off might. If not, it's time for the only thing a CHL gives us a right to carry... If you can get the distance and time to use it effectively.
     

    txinvestigator

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    I have not read through all the posts, so please forgive me if I am repeating someone.

    Without regard for the legality of carrying a club or illegal knife while carrying a handgun with a CHL I submit the following;

    This thread has the term "less lethal alternatives" in the title. Is a club, "less lethal". Is the use of a club deadly force? Unless a person has been trained in the non-lethal use of a club, the use of one is nearly certainly deadly force. Deadly force is force, which in the manner of its use or intended use, does is is capable of causing serious bodily injury or death.

    Striking a person with a club can easily cause death or serious bodily injury. Can you articulate why your use of the club was not deadly force and why your use of it was an appropriate level of force? If you are justified in using deadly force isn't your handgun a better choice?

    Just some food for thought..............
     

    txinvestigator

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    To the other part of the discussion, the part that's not gone crazy yet....

    I think having something else is a good idea. Of course it would have to be something legal. I have a Surefire Exec. Defender that's an awesome little light, but also hard anodized and has what I call flesh removers on both ends.

    If blinding them with it, and it will do that in daylight too, doesn't stop and neutralize the BG, taking part of his face off might. If not, it's time for the only thing a CHL gives us a right to carry... If you can get the distance and time to use it effectively.

    I agree with most of that, but does not "taking part of his face off" constitute deadly force where a pistol will be better?
     

    scobech

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    Regarding deadly force, I have had some training with the club and like anything else, it depends where you aim. Blows to the head, spine etc. are contraindicated. But again, I think we've beaten that horse enough :D

    WRT other daily carry items, that E2D Surefire is a popular item. I carry a 6PD also with the crenelated bezel. Also a SOG multi-tool and the aforementioned folder. Plus of course, the device-which-must-not-be-named.

    Oh yes, and a Para-Ordnance "Big Hawg"; silly name but who can argue with 15 rounds of .45 ACP goodness?
     

    txinvestigator

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    Regarding deadly force, I have had some training with the club and like anything else, it depends where you aim. Blows to the head, spine etc. are contraindicated. But again, I think we've beaten that horse enough :D

    I am certified in the straight baton as well as the PR24, and am PPCT certified. You and I can justify using the baton in a less than lethal manner. I am concerned for the person who thinks he can wail on someone with a baton and thinks it would not be deadly force. ;)
     

    JKTex

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    I agree with most of that, but does not "taking part of his face off" constitute deadly force where a pistol will be better?

    I used an exaggerated description for dramatic affect :D Literally, a punch with it would likely cause some pretty good pain and some blood but like anything, it could be used in a manner consistent with "deadly force". But I don't look at my use of it as deadly but, in a case where I feel it's necessary, what's going to guarantee me that the situation doesn't/won't warrant using a gun and trying to use the E2D won't just be something that kills time I can't get back.

    I guess we just have to be prepared to know that we need to make some fast decisions, and that we're prepared to make the best one we can under those circumstances. And that, makes the other silly part of this thread totally moot. It's good to know people DO think about this kind of thing which makes u more prepared.
     

    Joat

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    From the horse's mouth

    An answer from the CHL legal staff in Austin:


    Penal Code Section 46.02 was amended effective September 1, 2007 moving that particular section of 46.15 into 46.02(a-1). If you will note the section refers only to handguns. A concealed handgun license is just that "A HANDGUN LICENSE". If the person is caught with an illegal knife or club or ASP baton they may be subject to prosecution for Unlawfully Carrying of a Weapon.

    As far as the knife and club are concerned there is no way that they could be considered a "less lethal weapon." If you assault someone with the knife and/or club you are then charged with Aggravated Assault with a Deadly Weapon.

    CAVEAT: The Department has no authority to give a legal opinion to a member of the public on any specific fact situation and you may not rely on our answer as legal advice. If you have specific questions arising from the interpretation of any law or court case, we recommend that you consult your own legal counsel to obtain guidance.

    Joat
     

    juwaba98

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    Ok, a little look into the Texas Penal Code........

    http://www.texaspolicecentral.com/2007_-_2008_Penal_Code.pdf


    Carrying an illegal weapon is a Class A Misdemeanor elevated to 3rd Degree Felony if carried in an establishment licensed to sell alcohol.

    In the course of an assault (which any fight will be considered at time of incident unless further investigation proves otherwise), Use OR Exhibition of illegal weapon is a 2nd Degree Felony elevated to 1st Degree Felony if used on or by a Public Servant not directly related to official duties.

    This, of course, has been paraphrased. The link has been included so you can read it for yourself. The carry portion is included in the section we've been debating, the use section is Section 22.02 titled Assaultive offenses.

    Carrying one in public has stiff penalties I'm sure, but any of the felonies listed mean revocation of your CHL. Bad news.

    Just a little more food for thought.
     

    scobech

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    Interesting - the .pdf you linked to is different from (and better formatted than) the text document I found earlier. In this version it's clear you'd have to be a state's attorney etc. before 46.15 would cause 46.02 to be non-applicable. In the text version it appears as a standalone clause! :mad:

    Curses! Foiled again! :(
     

    txinvestigator

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    [FONT]As far as the knife and club are concerned there is no way that they could be considered a "less lethal weapon." If you assault someone with the knife and/or club you are then charged with Aggravated Assault with a Deadly Weapon.[/FONT]

    If one were justified in using deadly force, then he MIGHT be charged. But he would have the justifications in Chapter 9 just like using your handgun.
     

    Joat

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    Understood. That section was a direct quote from the legal staff at DPS. Rather than modify it, I presented it as is. If I understand it properly, that statement addressed the "less lethal" portion of the question and not the use in a self defense situation. An oblique reference to the definition of deadly force. Less lethal does not equate to non-lethal.

    Joat
     
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