Less Lethal Alternatives, Legal with CHL?

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Texas

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • scobech

    New Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 4, 2008
    16
    1
    I have a question regarding the carrying of less lethal weapons (e.g., knife or club) while also carrying a legally concealed handgun. The only discussion of this topic I could find online dated from 2004 and did not comprehend the latest changes to the Texas law.

    Section 46.02 of the Texas Government Code covers the carrying of illegal weapons such as a “handgun, illegal knife or club.” It’s the section you would be prosecuted under if you were caught “carrying a concealed weapon”.

    Section 46.15 (and this changed in 2007) states in part:

    "(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who: (5) is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code to carry a concealed handgun of the same category as the handgun the person is carrying."

    What that says to me is that if I have a CHL good for an automatic, and am carrying said auto, I can also legally carry a club and/or a knife with a blade over 5.5 inches. I cannot be prosecuted under 46.02 since it “does not apply”.

    While I do carry a folding knife, the blade is nowhere near 5.5 inches so that’s not an issue. I do however sometimes also carry a collapsible baton and I consider it a useful force multiplier in situations where using a handgun would be excessive. I would think that most LEO’s would consider the availability of less lethal alternatives to be a “good” thing; but I could be wrong!
    Military Camp
     

    JKTex

    Well-Known
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 11, 2008
    2,011
    31
    DFW, North Texas
    We tend to over complicate laws. A CHL has nothing whatsoever to do with anything but handguns.

    What you quote above, is very clear.

    "(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who: (5) is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code to carry a concealed handgun of the same category as the handgun the person is carrying."

    The handgun, not a knife, club, broomstick, brick etc. That simply says it does not apply to a person carrying a handgun that is legally what the person is licensed (CHL) to carry.

    It doesn't make any other weapon legal.

    However, I don't think I've ever seen where carrying any other "legal" weapon is a problem. If it's legal for you to carry, it's still legal for you to carry while you're carrying a legal handgun which you are licensed to carry.
     

    scobech

    New Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 4, 2008
    16
    1
    Point is, a club is not legal*. You could be prosecuted under 46.02. However, 46.15 says that 46.02 does not apply if you have a CHL and are carrying the appropriate handgun.

    Sometimes a pistol is just too much. My wife and I were confronted by an aggressive panhandler who was drunk/high and would not leave us alone. I wasn't going to shoot the poor SOB, but letting him see the ouchy stick extend with a flick of the wrist caused him to turn and walk away. It's just another option to de-escalate a confrontation.

    *Except for uniformed security guards who have had fifteen hours of training etc. I'm not one of those.
     

    JKTex

    Well-Known
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 11, 2008
    2,011
    31
    DFW, North Texas
    Maybe I'm missing a point but it sounds like you may be contradicting what your 1st post appears to say but maybe also sounds like you're agreeing with me in a way, but maybe none of the above. :confused: I think maybe, I'm not understanding what your point is.

    My point: A CHL does not make any weapon, illegal or not, legal.

    The act of carrying a handgun without a CHL is illegal, but that doesn't make the handgun illegal.

    If a club is illegal, it's illegal....period. If a knife is illegal, it's illegal....period. But if either is legal to buy and own, then the weapon itself is not illegal. Carrying either one may be illegal though. I'm not into clubs or knives so I don't have a clue. I do know that certain characteristics can make one illegal, that's about it for my banger/sticker knowledge. :D

    Neither if those have anything to do with a CHL (Concealed Handgun License) or a handgun. A CHL only makes carrying a legally possessed handgun, legal to carry under certain conditions.
     

    JKTex

    Well-Known
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 11, 2008
    2,011
    31
    DFW, North Texas
    Oh, to your point about non-lethal "tools" :D I agree. There are others like pepper spray, taser etc. If I "know" the BG is or can only beat me up, I'd much rather use one of those to keep them from doing so. But then again, I can't predict the future or know what they're capable of. Hopefully, drawing prepared to fire will gain a swift and obvious retreat and them alive.
     

    scobech

    New Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 4, 2008
    16
    1
    You're correct in that while a club may be legal, carrying it isn't (unless you have a CHL, sez I). I still think my reading of the law is correct, but IANAL so maybe plain English isn't.

    Also, don't get bogged down in the title of the law (i.e., Concealed 'Handgun' License). The title doesn't necessarily describe everything that's contained within the text of the act, especially after the legislature gets done with their amendments. Someone once said that if they ever brought back hanging, the enacting legislation would be called the "Spinal Re-alignment and Oxygen Conservation Act".

    Any other opinions?
     

    juwaba98

    Well-Known
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 9, 2008
    1,724
    21
    North Zulch, TX
    I've not studied the law as closely as you appear to have done, nor was I present when the law was written, amended or interpreted but I cannot by any stretch of my imagination see how a Concealed Handgun License applies to any weapon other than a handgun. It is not named a concealed weapons license. When I took the class there was absolutely nothing that indicated such. Granted this was before the current sessions but I don't see why we would go through the training only on handguns if the permit suddenly allows us to arm ourselves with anything we choose. If this were the case would we not have had to go through some form of training at least if not also proficiency tests? Just my thoughts...........say what you will.
     

    scobech

    New Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 4, 2008
    16
    1
    Ignore the law's title; read the law's text (which I helpfully quoted in the OP :)).

    Actually reading the entire thing could cause blindness.
     

    juwaba98

    Well-Known
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 9, 2008
    1,724
    21
    North Zulch, TX
    but what exactly is contained in 46.02? you left that out. You quoted the portion that you believe means it does not apply to a CHL. But what doesn't apply is not in the OP. While your attempt at helpfulness is appreciated it would appear that your mind is set and this isn't really a discussion at all. The fact you admit to quoting in part gives me hope for the discussion however, so I will bite again and say that from what I gave found so far (and yes I'm still digging) I think it sounds intended to protect you from prosecution for the use of a handgun that you are licensed to possess, not from whatever weapon previously illegal to carry but through a CHL now indeed can carry. I'll get back if I manage to dig up more.
     

    juwaba98

    Well-Known
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 9, 2008
    1,724
    21
    North Zulch, TX
    Found IT

    The portion you quoted, right down to the number 5 in parenthesis, applies to a uniformed armed security guard---- or a LEO or active military or other state or fed gov't agency

    now the law states that if you are on your property you pretty much may do what you wish. However it is still illegal in public to carry any of the weapons listed whether concealed or not. If you do indeed read the law in its entirity and follow the way it is written meaning the flow of sections, subsections, and provisions therein you'll have removed the blinders you spoke of and see it the way it's meant not the way you'd hoped. Sorry to be a spoil sport.
     

    scobech

    New Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 4, 2008
    16
    1
    No, no . . . it's a discussion - I'm willing to be convinced, but it's got to be more than "The law's title is Concealed Handgun". ;)

    The text of 46.02 is contained within the CHL Instructor's Handbook linked here http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/LS-16_withchanges.pdf . The section is titled "Unlawful Carrying Weapons". It specifically mentions handguns, illegal knives (i.e., one with a blade over 5.5 inches) and clubs and the law states that it is a third degree felony to carry any of them unless: you're on your own premesis or you're enroute to your car.

    This brings me to my point. Later in the document linked above, section 46.15 states that 46.02 "Does Not Apply" if (and here is a whole litany of conditions) including "is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid license issued under blah, blah, blah."

    Since 46.02 specifically calls out the three weapons classes of handguns, knives and clubs and since 46.15 says 46.02 does not apply if you have a CHL, it follows that all three classes of weapons mentioned in 46.02 are included in the 'does not apply'. Why would they not be? You've taken the training, you're supposedly now proficient in conflict resolution, why not include the less lethal items in the authorization to carry the far deadlier handgun?
     

    juwaba98

    Well-Known
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 9, 2008
    1,724
    21
    North Zulch, TX
    Thats the same link I used to come to my conclusion, right now I am losing a battle with my computer to attempt to paste the entire excerpt you are quoting but it boils down to the specific section you quote applies to a commissioned security officer and his use of open carry of a firearm, club or knife in conjunction with a concealed handgun that he has a license for while performing his duties as a security officer. Hopefully I will win the battle with my computer as I know my arguments look weak and without being able to show you the whole section you need to read in person I am unable to convince you because you have already read what you wish. I am trying to beat this Dell but am having hell with it. damn puters.:mad:
     

    juwaba98

    Well-Known
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 9, 2008
    1,724
    21
    North Zulch, TX
    ok, I concede to my computer. I cannot not defeat it and it is getting close to bedtime. I am probably wrong anyway so I will let you have your club or knife whichever you prefer. Just dont make the mistake of showing it to someone with a gun, once you commit to a weapon as a resolution to a situation it should not necessarily be the best suited one yet the one that definitively resolves the conflict without any doubt. I would hate to hear of anyone who thought a less lethal weapon was sufficient only to find out they weren't in a stick fight yet it was a gunfight and it was too late. Anyway I will check in tomorrow (maybe my gateway at work will be nicer to me).
     

    JKTex

    Well-Known
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 11, 2008
    2,011
    31
    DFW, North Texas
    You're actually serious? :eek:

    I started wondering if you weren't just messing around trying to get some discussion going, and you may still be.

    It doesn't take a lawyer to read and understand what you're quoting. And it is NOT in any way including anything but "handguns" within the context of a "Concealed HANDGUN License". In fact, by the letter of the law, if you hold a CHL, are carrying a handgun and are carrying an illegal weapon, you are subject to CHL revocation as you are carrying a concealed handgun while committing a crime.

    There is no convincing someone who has an orange in one hand and an apple in the other, that an apple is not an orange and an orange is not an apple, even if they are saying they are open to being convinced.

    I'm out on keeping this one going.... ;)
     

    JKTex

    Well-Known
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 11, 2008
    2,011
    31
    DFW, North Texas
    ok, I concede to my computer. I cannot not defeat it and it is getting close to bedtime. I am probably wrong anyway so I will let you have your club or knife whichever you prefer. Just dont make the mistake of showing it to someone with a gun, once you commit to a weapon as a resolution to a situation it should not necessarily be the best suited one yet the one that definitively resolves the conflict without any doubt. I would hate to hear of anyone who thought a less lethal weapon was sufficient only to find out they weren't in a stick fight yet it was a gunfight and it was too late. Anyway I will check in tomorrow (maybe my gateway at work will be nicer to me).

    You're not having a computer problem. This .pdf is an image so you can't select and copy text. But you can read it, and understand what it says. It's clear, at least to some of us. :D
     

    scobech

    New Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 4, 2008
    16
    1
    Yes, I am serious and yes I am trying to get a discussion going, but I think I'm going to have to speak with an actual attorney as to the interpretation of the law.

    Yes, bringing a stick to a gunfight is a bad idea. So is bringing a gun to a fistfight.

    I will close by saying once again regarding the content (which controls) of the law versus the name of the law (which is nothing more than a convenient handle) that (apologies in advance for shouting) the TITLE is not the TEXT!!!11!!// :o
     

    juwaba98

    Well-Known
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 9, 2008
    1,724
    21
    North Zulch, TX
    Ok, so the point of a concealed handgun is only to protect yourself in a gunfight? So if it's only a potential fistfight the gun is excessive since it is only hospitalization you may face versus death? A club or knife (whichever is appropriate enough to gain the upperhand) is a better idea because just maybe the BG will reconsider his actions when he sees them? Why then bother with a CHL at all, just carry what you wish, the law is open to interpretation anyway, right? I don't see how either of the other choice of prohibited weapons is better than the legal one in diffusing a situation. If I feel that myself or my family is in danger (which is the only reason I carry) I do not want to hope the BG can be persuaded to go about his business rather I want to ensure that while facing the business end of my Sig he knows his only option is to flee or face the ultimate consequence. I'm done.

    Oh and for the record, it wasn't the title argument that was stuck by. I read the same passage you did and so far you are the only one who has interpreted it the way you have. At least the only on who will say so. Perhaps consulting a lawyer is a good idea, maybe we can all learn something. I hope you have one for a buddy and won't have to pay to find out you may indeed be wrong.

    JKTex, thanks for the tip, I was quickly learning that fact for myself:o
     

    scobech

    New Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 4, 2008
    16
    1
    I've done some further research and it would appear that we're all equally correct. Since the legislation is new, there is no case law that has built up around it, i.e., we have to wait for a judge to adjudicate a case and say what the law really "means".

    The text (as a document) of the Texas Penal Code can be found at http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/pe.toc.htm - scroll down to Title 10, Chapter 46.

    § 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person
    commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or
    recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal
    knife, or club if the person is not:
    (1) on the person's own premises or premises under the
    person's control; or
    (2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle
    that is owned by the person or under the person's control.
    ====
    46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY.

    Text of subsection as reenacted by Acts 2007, 80th Leg., R.S., Ch.
    647
    , § 1
    (b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who) is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid
    license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to
    carry a concealed handgun of the same category as the handgun the
    person is carrying;
    =====
    Note that there are several similar but slightly different sections in 46.15 including the one you cited regarding security officers. The section I'm refering to which references the CHL is below that one.

    I'm sure we can all come up with a dozen different scenarios that 'prove' that carrying one weapon or another is 'best'. I'm simply advocating for more tools in the toolbox.

    Best Regards.
     

    JKTex

    Well-Known
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 11, 2008
    2,011
    31
    DFW, North Texas
    Good luck in court....

    My drivers license doesn't allow me to drive a vehicle not legal for the street, on the street.

    A CHL doesn't allow you to carry a weapon other than a handgun and make it legal. You're picking out 2 small pieces and trying to interpret the whole thing. If those 2 pieces aren't clear to you, you have to read the rest to clarify supporting matter.


    Think about this, to carry a club requires certain criteria to be met. A CHL doesn't waive all that and make it OK.

    No case law is needed, it is well written law.
     

    juwaba98

    Well-Known
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 9, 2008
    1,724
    21
    North Zulch, TX
    Ok, apparently I lied and I am not done.......... I re-read the sections again and paid attention to the sections you point out. I keyed in on the security guard section the first time because it is the only one mentioning legal carry of a club so figured that was what you were picking up on. Now I realize that you are getting it from a section that only mentions a handgun and proper license for it, nothing about other weapons. My conclusion? It must be legal because that is how you read it.

    As for appropriate weapons, I'll let it go too because there are many scenarios to be debated and some don't end well for someone who's looking for a weapon to beat someone with versus a weapon to protect themselves with.
     
    Top Bottom