Military Camp

Machined versus forged

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  • Reaper277

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    I read up a lot on this before I bought a billet lower, long story short from what I gathered if you're going to beat the crap out of your gun like military in combat go with forged. Everything else billet is good to go. Just make sure it's 7075.
    Billet offers other options like built in trigger guard, but now there's forged lowers with a lot of the same options.
     

    bptactical

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    Billet tends to be bulkier, you can't get the refined lines as easily. Forged will be stronger due to the denser grain structure.
     

    M. Sage

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    For an AR build, 556 223

    For what part of the build?

    Actually, scratch that. It's half dozen one way, 6 the other. Machined parts are machined from a billet that's usually forged. Forged parts are forged into shape and don't take a lot of machining to "clean up".

    Personally, I'll stick to the generally cheaper forged parts because outside of "looks cool", I haven't seen anybody show a clear advantage to billet.
     

    wakal

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    My usual pitch on them, having minor experience with both, is that forged is stronger by volume due to the forging process and is cheaper due to the reduced machine time needed to finish them. Billet is more interesting to look at, and is often built thicker in known weak spots in the AR design to resist or at least reduce flexing but is more expensive since there is a increased machine time production component of the pricing. Billet is usually heavier than forged on a per-piece basis.

    The strength argument is usually ignored by pointing out that lowers are often found in plastic, with the old Cav Arms system being the strongest (and lightest).

    Like many things in life, and especially in the gun world, the difference boils down to personal preference :)


    Alex
     

    Charlie

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    My usual pitch on them, having minor experience with both, is that forged is stronger by volume due to the forging process and is cheaper due to the reduced machine time needed to finish them. Billet is more interesting to look at, and is often built thicker in known weak spots in the AR design to resist or at least reduce flexing but is more expensive since there is a increased machine time production component of the pricing. Billet is usually heavier than forged on a per-piece basis.

    The strength argument is usually ignored by pointing out that lowers are often found in plastic, with the old Cav Arms system being the strongest (and lightest).

    Like many things in life, and especially in the gun world, the difference boils down to personal preference :)


    Alex
    This ^^^^^
     

    Reaper277

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    Billet Lowers and uppers are coming down in price. I picked up a billet lower from a start up company for $125. I spoke to the owner and they use all the same processes as say Wilson Combat or any of the big names, like most things it's the name you pay for.
     

    M. Sage

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    Billet Lowers and uppers are coming down in price. I picked up a billet lower from a start up company for $125. I spoke to the owner and they use all the same processes as say Wilson Combat or any of the big names, like most things it's the name you pay for.

    I do actually have some background in machining and manufacturing, and that makes me doubt their claims. I'd like to know if they're using billets with the same qualities of the big names. One example: Are they taking a cast block and machining it? 'Cause that'd be very different from what Wilson et al do, but give results that the layman would never be able to tell apart.
     

    Reaper277

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    I do actually have some background in machining and manufacturing, and that makes me doubt their claims. I'd like to know if they're using billets with the same qualities of the big names. One example: Are they taking a cast block and machining it? 'Cause that'd be very different from what Wilson et al do, but give results that the layman would never be able to tell apart.

    Ill call the guy and ask, just so I ask the right questions, what am I comparing to? Do they machine from a cast block vs what the others do.
    I do know that they EDM wire cut the mag wells.
     

    M. Sage

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    Aluminum isn't just aluminum. AFAIK, the big boys are using forged billets (or at least, that's what I"m familiar with - I know a bit more about steel...) vs cheaper methods like poured or rolled (can you do that with Al?).
     

    Renegade

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    Whether it it is billet or forged, they all start as Al poured into a rectangular mold.

    The billet is then CNC machined from this block.

    The Forged is first forged by dropping a 50 ton or whatever press on it give it its general shape, then it is CNC machined to finish.
     

    ROGER4314

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    I've spent my entire life around Machine Shops and Machine tool processes and you guys got me confused!

    OK....I'll chime in. References are to AR-15 lower housings.

    Forgings.

    The raw material is hammered physically. Pounded and beaten. That work hardens the material and makes a very tough piece of material. Other examples of forgings are engine connecting rods and pistons. After forging, the part is machined. Are forgings really necessary in lower housings? Probably not as we see polymer lowers all the time and they work well. The reason it works OK with polymer lowers is that the receiver only positions the parts relative to each other. The real strength requirement is where the bolt carrier group locks into the barrel stub.

    Billet
    These lowers are not machined from castings. They are carved out of solid blocks of aluminum. Because the end mills must hog out a lot of material to make the lower, places like the magazine well are thicker and more bulky that those machined from a casting. If they were thinner, the material would crack from the force applied by the end mill.

    Sun Devil is a prime example of a billet lower and they have a mini movie of how they machine their billet lowers right on their site. For billet lowers, material costs are cheaper but machining costs are higher. It starts out as a block of aluminum cut to the approximate size. Manufacturing tolerances are very tight. Some mass produced internal parts may not fit well in a billet lower due to part dimensional variation.....not from problems in the lower.

    Is a billet lower better? They are unique in the industry but better? Not really. My Sun Devil is terrific but better? I couldn't swear to it.

    Casting
    The rough lower casting makes machining a lot easier and quicker. In castings, material costs are higher as the casting needs to be designed slightly oversize then CNC machined to dimension. Machining time is reduced and money is saved on machining. Castings are plenty strong especially when compared to Polymer lowers.


    CNC Machines

    What makes all of this possible is the CNC (Computerized Numerical Control) machining. It is extremely tight tolerance, very accurate and the machines cost a bundle!

    Improvements in drafting/design also made these lowers possible. I taught AutoCad for 10 years and it's very easy to hold FOUR decimal place accuracy on a design drawing! The ultimate tie in is the CAD/CAM system (Computer aided design/computer aided manufacturing- or machining) system where the design drawing data is plugged right into the CNC machine.


    CAD/CAM
    I've seen the proving setups for CAD/CAM. They use a dense foam as a set up part and run through all of the operations and tool changes on that foam to test the program. Once it's ok'd, it will make part after part with nothing more than installing and removing lowers, chip clean out and dull tool replacement.

    Aluminum Machining

    Machining aluminum parts is a hoot! As I was taught, it's almost impossible to over speed or over feed aluminum machining. The faster you cut it, the better the finish results.....if you cool the tools with flooded coolant. It's pretty spectacular to see! Here's the Sun Devil site:

    http://www.sundevilmfg.com/

    Flash
     
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    Reaper277

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    I got in touch with the owner he sent me an email with what they do. This if from his email.
    "We start with a block of certified aerospace grade 7075-T6 aluminum cut from plate with the grain following the long axis from front to back. We only buy from American producers as there are lots of foreign (mostly Russian) producers that will not properly grade their aluminum."
     
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