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Magnum primer test results

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  • TexMex247

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    I finally got around to running my test rounds for some 357 magnum loads using 2400, new starline brass, Everglades 158gr plated bullets and a mix of half Remington 5-1/2 primers (mag cup w/standard prime)and Federal small pistol magnums(#200) through a chronograph. The results were completely opposite of what I expected...

    Across my chosen load spectrum, the Remington 5-1/2s shot faster than the Federal #200s. Many would say that's not unusual, however, the differences were not minor. The Rem 5-1/2s were a good 50 to as much as 90 fps faster. Whether cold bore or warm the results were consistent from 12.2gr up to 13.5 with load levels staggered .5 gr down from 13.5 to 12.5 with the 12.2gr being the starting load.

    I shot 10 rounds of each after firing 3 warm up shots with PPU factory 158gr .357 rounds. They averaged around 1100fps through my TRR8. My rounds were batched at the same time, on the same equipment seated and crimped all the same way. I doubted the results so much thinking I had mislabeled them I saved one of each to pull down. My dissection tonight confirmed it.

    Not only were these results significant, they were diametrically opposed to what I expected. The greatest nugget within the testing was confirmation that magnum primers are not needed with this powder which has been a long standing belief. It was also interesting to see that even at 13.5 gr, I never got over 1034fps. Obviously no pressure signs throughout that range either.

    I even ran a string of a proven 9mm load to confirm proper operation of the chronograph. Also, even though I had some powder flakes regardless of charge, the only group with all 5 shots touching was 12.2gr w/rem primers. I was a bit disappointed to see the groups open up on the SW as it warmed up in addition to loosing fps moving up from 12.2-12.5 grains. Which also occurred with both primers.

    I think my next test will be with the 9mm just to confirm that the Federal #200s are possibly the slowest shooting primers I've ever loaded. Anyways, I thought I'd share my little bit of weekend research with y'all and possibly save someone the trouble of trying to make velocity with these primers.
    Hurley's Gold
     

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    hornetguy

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    very interesting testing.... the only "experience" I've had was on u-toob, a guy did a test with 9mm, using magnum and standard primers. He saw no differences in velocity or pressure. (he had a pressure testing unit attached.) Maybe the larger case capacity allows more variation? I suppose we could theorize all day long, but standard giving more velocity than magnum is very interesting.
     

    rotor

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    Alliant says that 2400 does not need magnum primers. Very interesting study. I guess in these tight times you aren't able to test magnum vs regular of same brand.
     

    robertc1024

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    Thanks for the report. I've heard similar things before suggesting that the different brands of primers have more influence they have on how hot they are, more that the differences between magnum and regular primers from the same manufacturer.
     

    TexMex247

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    That group in the picture was after 3 factory rounds on a fairly cold gun. Rested on a bag at 15 yards. It was the 12.2gr load and although it produced some unburned flakes it was the most accurate. It would have been nice to do a SxS test within the same brand. I'm going to do a similar test with my favorite 9mm load. I also plan on repeating the test with a different powder.

    Doing a little research, there was a theory that the pressure created was pushing out the bullet and powder before complete ignition. I felt like I was using a fairly firm taper crimp but I may also batch some with a heavier crimp too. I thought for sure the magnum primers would start to shine at the higher end but they really didn't.
     

    TexMex247

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    I'm always happy to share my findings on this forum. Thanks for the kind words gentlemen.

    I have found that there is really no replacement for first hand real world experience. Now that I'm over a decade into my reloading journey I've even found some of my old posts when searching for information. Always makes me laugh when I do.

    Years ago I did the small rifle primer test in my target 9mm load back then. Surprised to find almost no difference in velocity between those and cci sp primers and reliable ignition. I think the es and sds were also neck and neck.
     

    TexMex247

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    Just finished another batch for testing. This time a walked another step up the ladder to 13.8 and 14.2 grain loads of 2400. Once again with Remington 5-1/2s and federal 200s. I also put together some loads using AA #5 at 8.8, 9.1 and 9.5 grains also under the same 158gr plated bullet.

    I decided to crimp these all about as much as is reasonable, basically a full turn on the lee fcd. Which probably borders on excessive but I wanted to rule out that as well. The bullets I chose have a decent cannelure which I'm using.

    Unfortunately the rain will put the brakes on any testing this weekend. Looking forward to the next round though. Hopefully asap. Here is a picture of the initial round vs newer one crimp wise...
     

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    Ozzman

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    walked another step up the ladder to 13.8 and 14.2 grain loads of 2400.
    FYI, these are going to be hot.

    IME, accuracy stops dropping after 13.5 grains of 2400 so if you find your groups opening up it isn't you, it's the load.
    Eagerly waiting for the range report. Good luck.
     

    TexMex247

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    FYI, these are going to be hot.

    IME, accuracy stops dropping after 13.5 grains of 2400 so if you find your groups opening up it isn't you, it's the load.
    Eagerly waiting for the range report. Good luck.

    Based on previous testing even the 13.5gr load was well under factory fps with no greater recoil and no irregularities with primers or brass. Speer load data showed a Max of 14.5. Bunch of recipes out there state 14.5 as a classic magnum load. I know I'm knocking on the door but the build up has been uneventful which I know is a good thing.

    I do have to agree that the best group so far was at the bottom of the ladder. If the weather cooperates I could get a window this weekend to complete testing.
     

    Deavis

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    Your results aren't surprising. I have yet to see any difference in standard and magnum Federal primers when tested across a number of loads, calibers, and powders. That is NOT the case for other brands where you can count on 30-50FPS for a magnum version of a CCI, Winchester, and to a lesser extent Remington primers. Brand to brand makes a difference as you've seen.

    Your crimp looks heavy but you are crimping into the very bottom of the cannelure if I am looking at the picture properly. The back end of the crimp curve may be pushed into the body diameter, which isn't going to create quite the same lock as if you put it into the meat of the cannelure area. May I suggest moving it up a bit, you may have to back off your die because it will crimpy into that area easier and require less force for the same amount of crimp. You'll have all that cannelure material now under the crimp curve giving you material bulk you miss by flattening against the much harder to compress body area. Just a thought to consider.
     

    TexMex247

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    You're right about the crimp. Since I was bumping the powder charges up I didn't want to increase seating depth and kinda thought the same about where the crimps were landing. The cannelures on these bullets are actually pretty long but they could be seated at least .010" deeper. It would put the overall length at 1.570 if I did that. I'll take a pic of a loose bullet tonight for reference.
     

    TexMex247

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    Well between my last range trip and this one I discovered a major factor in my looser groups and seemingly low velocities. Turns out my TRR8 has succumbed to the loose barrel nut issue. I noticed when cleaning it recently. The barrel was literally turning. In some haste to retest, I snugged it down and went shooting it today.

    On my last trip shooting, not only did the groups open up but I also noticed some cylinder blast that actually cooked a hole through one of my sandbags. Didn't think much of it til it repeated today. Even someone behind me was feeling the cylinder blast. With that in mind, I only fired 5, 5 shot strings with it.

    Luckily, I was able to borrow my GF's 6" 686 deluxe which I fired 6, 5 shot strings with. Although the 686 shot much higher velocities, it mirrored the TRR8s lower velocities with the Federal magnum primers. Even at the top of the testing range, the magnum primers shot 69fps slower with the 14.2gr charge than the R5-1/2s. They had identical SD but at 1270 fps the R5-1/2s top the speed chart.

    The TRR8 averaged a pathetic 930 fps with that same load. Which reveals how much cylinder gap effects overall power. Now it did record the lowest SDs so far at 11(13.8gr 2400) and 14(14.2 gr 2400) which may say something about the quality of the barrel. That may become topic in a future gunsmithing thread.
     
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    TexMex247

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    To take the test a step further I also shot a few strings of an AA#5 load with the same bullet and primer combinations. These were at the bottom of my load spectrum but showed a similar pattern as the 2400. Although there was much less deviation, the magnum primers were 22 fps slower in the 6" gun. That was in a load featuring 8.8gr AA#5. Those loads were 1035fps(R5-1/2) and 1013fps(fed200). The gun was warm but not hot before starting this round of testing.
     

    TexMex247

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    Ok. Final update on this thread. TRR8 cylinder gap reset to .005" and resumed testing. Ran some rounds at 9.1 and 9.5gr aa5 using the r5-1/2s and fed200s.

    Recorded a speed difference of 48 and 49 fps with the r5-1/2s over the fed200s. The overall difference was about 20 fps less than the spread from the 2400 but significant margins all the same. The aa5 loads averaged 992fps even at 9.5gr but grouped pretty well.

    Overall I think the AA5 is better suited for the 38+p or even better the 45 acp. At least it's clean throughout the range. I never could get 2400 to clean up, always some flakes. In spite of it all, I'll pump out a couple hundred rounds with standard priming and 2400 at 12gr and maybe a jump to 13.5 ish for a full power round.

    If I get a wild hair I might even cook up another test with unique but right now it's looking like fed 200s may be magnum by name but not ignition output. Nothing wrong with that as SDs were always similar but these may be relegated to hammer fired 9mm use.
     

    HoustonDave

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    If you can get 2400 to run clean with no ash residue you're a better man than I. Ran it for years n magnum loads and would happily use it now but people kept giving me AA #9 and I'm too cheap not to use it. I think both Skeeter Skelton and Elmer Kieth commented on the reside, too.
     
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