Big country
TGT Addict
I see what your saying Madmo44mag (you should have picked a name that is easier to abbreviate) But I don't think a whole lot of juries are gonna go for the "He moved so I shot him again" theory. I hope I'm wrong I really do.
Man has no regrets defending Oklahoma City pharmacy
- Thread starter MadMo44Mag
- Start date
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I agree that the five additional shots don't help much but don't be so confident that race doesn't play itself out in a court room.
Just call me Mo- LOL But don't call me late to supper!
txinvestigator
TGT Addict
Don't help much? They were not justified. That means illegal regardless of the race involved.
Racism will never die when we keep using steroetypes to defend that which we don't like.
Unfortunately, until this case goes to court, there isn't any one here who has all the facts to be able to call this definitively murder or not. The video doesn't show the suspect, so we have to make assumptions as to his condition.
I tend to agree that based on what I've seen/heard to date, the additional shots were over the top. However, innocent until proven guilty and all that, I would imagine that his attorney has told him to shut up until his court date, and I don't think there will be any additional "useful" information out on this case until it gets to court.
Just my $0.02 worth.
I agree RC not going to hear much else.
As stated I don't care what happened to little Johnny - he made a bad decision and is dead for it.
One additional shot to the chest would not have been all that bad if there was justification - he was moving towards a gun: but to unload on him was just dumb.
Now mind you and I'll bet this comes up, he was pumped up and running or fear and adrenalin but that only going to carry you so far in court.
I suspect if they can keep the races issue out of court then he will plea bargain down to manslaughter but still - you point a gun at someone with the intent of stealing and killing then don't whine cause you did the dying.
I agree, race SHOULD have no issue here. If he murdered someone, he goes to jail. We'll see if the jury sticks to the facts.
txinvestigator
TGT Addict
Innocent until proven guilty is the requirement for a jury. Not for me here on an internet forum. When the threat is over; you stop.
I hear ya man. No argument with your choice. I think that he's trying to make a point in that we don't have all of the facts just yet. Who knows, maybe we'll learn of some new circumstance with the situation. Then again, maybe he just got pissed and ripped into the kid. If so then Murder 1 but know this, I don't give a rats ass about the kids life (white or black). You play, you pay...
My point was simply that based on what you've seen in the media, you know without a doubt that the perp on the floor was not moving or reaching for another weapon? You can not possibly be wrong, the pharmacist had no conceivable motive for making those final shots?
Like I said, I agree with you that based on what's been presented so far I think he's wrong. But my crystal ball is on the blink and I'm lacking the psychic abilities to see in to the past. I'm not defending the guy, just saying how 'bout we don't hang the man until we know all the facts? I think you'll find me to be quite hard on gun owners and CHL holders who do wrong, for the bad light they shed on the rest of us, but IMO it's too early to judge this one.
From the video you can tell the kid who was killed had a gun, its hard to see unless you watch carefully. However the kid who got away was the one actually shooting. The kid that was killed never even fired a shot. So why was the kid that was actually doing the shooting not the one shot???????????
Self defense is great, by all means protect yourself, but with that video it shows something different to be honest.
Self defense is great, by all means protect yourself, but with that video it shows something different to be honest.
What do you mean by this?
Two gunman walk into a room, and there is shooting. Logically, you'd want to shoot at the most pertinent threat, first. But put yourself in his shoes. He has limited mobility, his gun is small and underpowered with 8 shots (at most if he has the a full mag and a +1 extender). And oh, PEOPLE ARE SHOOTING AT HIM AND TELLING HIM THEY ARE GOING TO MURDER HIM. It is a small miracle that he hit the guy in the first place.
I think I'd shoot at the first person who I could draw a bead on who had a gun. I'd like to think that I could shoot accurately the biggest threat and quickly react to any situation, but I have never had anyone point a gun at me. I've never been shot at. I am not going to be critical of a man when when he shot at and hit a bad guy, and he didn't hit an innocent person. We can discuss when and if his actions crossed a line, but I see no rational basis for your attack on this man.
Big country
TGT Addict
No one is attacking this man. People are simply stating the things that they see. I believe this man is innocent until a judge says otherwise but he did go back to the incompacitated BG and shoot him 5 or 6 more times after he shot him in the head. There just ain't a lot of fight left in some one after a round to the face. Even if it was a 380.
DoubleActionCHL
Well-Known
There are conflicting accounts of what happened, and I believe both are simply speculation. The pharmacist says the bad guy on the floor was armed and still conscious. Another report said the bad guy on the floor was unconscious.
The pharmacist is the only source of information, as the security camera didn't give us that view. It's doubtful that forensics will tell us if he was conscious, although they can state, with a degree of certainty, that he was still alive when he was shot the second time.
Conceding that the pharmacist is our only source of information as to whether or not the bad guy was conscious, we must defer to his judgment as to whether the bad guy was a continuing threat. I don't know about you, but a conscious bad guy with a gun in his hand, who had just threatened to kill me, is a threat to me!
The pharmacist is the only source of information, as the security camera didn't give us that view. It's doubtful that forensics will tell us if he was conscious, although they can state, with a degree of certainty, that he was still alive when he was shot the second time.
Conceding that the pharmacist is our only source of information as to whether or not the bad guy was conscious, we must defer to his judgment as to whether the bad guy was a continuing threat. I don't know about you, but a conscious bad guy with a gun in his hand, who had just threatened to kill me, is a threat to me!
"Shot in the head" has several different meanings as well, and nothing I've read has been specific as to what the extend of his head injury was ... other than saying he died from the stomach wounds. Not knowing the extent of the head injury opens up the possibility that the perp was conscious and moving, because I have no data to the contrary.
The appearance given from the video isn't flattering, but there's just to much unknown (to the general public at least) information for me to make an educated decision as to the man's guilt. If nothing else though, this should be a lesson to anyone who hasn't fully considered the legal ramifications of using the firearm in self defense, CHL or not.
There's another video that shows a third angle during the shooting. The pharmacist was using a Taurus Judge revolver. Theory time: The kid was still alive after being shot in the head because the Judge was loaded with buckshot. These things make almost no muzzle energy when loaded with shotgun shells (shotgun shells being made for longer barrels, with slower burning powder and such), and I could see where buckshot fired from one would very likely bounce off someone's skull without injuring them terribly.
IMO, Taurus and (especially) Bond Arms are very irresponsible for telling folks that shotgun shells loaded in handguns make a good defensive load.
I didn't see a second gun. Does it matter, though? He's participating in an armed robbery and is therefore a legitimate lead magnet.
I don't see a second gun. The second kid comes in, pulls a ski mask out from under his shirt and puts it on, though.
You can't see what's going on with the kid on the floor from the video. Was he unconscious as the media and prosecutor are saying, or was he coming around and bringing his hands under his body.
I remember a somewhat similar case where a police officer was acquitted of shooting a man on the ground after a car chase. He proned the man out, stood over him with his weapon drawn and said (very clearly on the video) "get up!" When the man on the ground drew his hands in to push off the ground and get up (how else are you supposed to get up from a face-down prone?), the officer immediately fired one shot which knocked the man down, paused a beat and shot him again as he lay there stunned at which point the man on the ground started writhing in pain.
The man on the ground was discovered to be unarmed.
The acquittal was based on the man's hands coming back in toward his body, and on the officer's testimony that he had accidentally yelled "get up" when he meant to say "stay down".
The evidence (that we've seen so far) in this case is a lot less clear than that one, so I'm going to be on acquittal.
Very underpowered: he came up with a Taurus Judge (5 shots) loaded with what I'd bet was buckshot; a completely underpowered and ineffective load when fired in a .45 cal barrel of that length.
IMO, Taurus and (especially) Bond Arms are very irresponsible for telling folks that shotgun shells loaded in handguns make a good defensive load.
I didn't see a second gun. Does it matter, though? He's participating in an armed robbery and is therefore a legitimate lead magnet.
I don't see a second gun. The second kid comes in, pulls a ski mask out from under his shirt and puts it on, though.
Evidence and video does.
Good Grief, are we law abiding citizens ONLY when we might get caught?
You can't see what's going on with the kid on the floor from the video. Was he unconscious as the media and prosecutor are saying, or was he coming around and bringing his hands under his body.
I remember a somewhat similar case where a police officer was acquitted of shooting a man on the ground after a car chase. He proned the man out, stood over him with his weapon drawn and said (very clearly on the video) "get up!" When the man on the ground drew his hands in to push off the ground and get up (how else are you supposed to get up from a face-down prone?), the officer immediately fired one shot which knocked the man down, paused a beat and shot him again as he lay there stunned at which point the man on the ground started writhing in pain.
The man on the ground was discovered to be unarmed.
The acquittal was based on the man's hands coming back in toward his body, and on the officer's testimony that he had accidentally yelled "get up" when he meant to say "stay down".
The evidence (that we've seen so far) in this case is a lot less clear than that one, so I'm going to be on acquittal.
Very underpowered: he came up with a Taurus Judge (5 shots) loaded with what I'd bet was buckshot; a completely underpowered and ineffective load when fired in a .45 cal barrel of that length.
Actually it does matter.....it is going to make a big difference as far as his defense goes...
As far as his involvement & being a "lead magnet" as you say, I absolutely agree.
