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  • etmo

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    Let’s also start talking about what happens when all these infrastructure projects that are being done by the national service kids starts putting the private sector segment of the industry out of business because the pool of slave labor is cheap.

    There is no need to de-fund the private sector by a single penny. Every single private sector project can continue as normal. That's the beauty of this proposal. Keep the private sector as is, and put the investment forth in this new, massive labor pool. Because this labor pool is so large and so inexpensive, it can actually shrink the infrastructure deficit, saving America money as shown above, which ends up yielding a return on the investment.

    As for the 13A, you very likely wouldn't have a chance of winning in court. "Involuntary servitude" has a specific legal definition which is not 100% in agreement with the definition that you or I might use in conversation. You must have "compulsory labor for the satisfaction of debts or peonage" to meet the legal hurdle of involuntary servitude.
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    Younggun

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    There is no need to de-fund the private sector by a single penny. Every single private sector project can continue as normal. That's the beauty of this proposal. Keep the private sector as is, and put the investment forth in this new, massive labor pool. Because this labor pool is so large and so inexpensive, it can actually shrink the infrastructure deficit, saving America money as shown above, which ends up yielding a return on the investment.

    As for the 13A, you very likely wouldn't have a chance of winning in court. "Involuntary servitude" has a specific legal definition which is not 100% in agreement with the definition that you or I might use in conversation. You must have "compulsory labor for the satisfaction of debts or peonage" to meet the legal hurdle of involuntary servitude.

    This sounds a lot like mandatory gulag duty.

    Given the current political climate, I doubt it would work out. Something something unintended consequences.


    Also, nothing the government does is ever “cheaper”. Never.

    And a last issue (aside from Todd’s many great points) is that you have now created a society where a large number of people are completely dependent on the government. Not just those with welfare (they’ll still exist), but young people with no will to be there who are now forced on to the government teet as “cheap labor”. The government will control them. They are forced to work inside the government organization and abide by all rules passed down by whichever party might be in power.

    Remember when Obama mentioned something similar to this and there was outrage across the forum? Pepperidge Farm remembers. And with all the talk of the growing national plague of leftism do you really think we will never have another left wing government?


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    Younggun

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    I would be perfectly fine with someone showing up to get their unemployment check and being handed a yellow vest and garbage bag, as well as a map showing the portion of the highway in which they are to pick up the trash.


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    rotor

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    I would be perfectly fine with someone showing up to get their unemployment check and being handed a yellow vest and garbage bag, as well as a map showing the portion of the highway in which they are to pick up the trash.


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    Even more so their welfare check.
     

    satx78247

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    I would be perfectly fine with someone showing up to get their unemployment check and being handed a yellow vest and garbage bag, as well as a map showing the portion of the highway in which they are to pick up the trash.


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    Younggun; All,

    Actually, I have something a LOT more organized than "hand them a yellow vest & a trash-bag" in mind. - What I have in mind is two years of National Service FOR EVERY 18YO & that is quite like the old CCC
    I foresee a day going something like this, Monday-Friday:

    Reveille at 0500
    BIG breakfast at 0600
    HS completion or community college technical courses 0730 until 1130
    Lunch at 1200
    Form for work projects at 1300
    Work over a 1700
    Supper at 1800
    Study hall at 1900
    Lights Out at 2130.

    Saturday 0800-1700 Supervised games & assorted work projects (as necessary)
    Recreation/Dances each Sat night
    Sunday religious services & private time.

    NO SALARY for trainees but "3 hots & an Army cot" as well as an allowance of say 20.oo per week.

    NOTE: This is a 1st draft of my ideas & contributions. or improvements are SOLICITED from members.

    yours, satx
     

    etmo

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    Where does the money for infrastructure projects AND the national service program come from come from?

    Getting a couple hundred billion extra -- that's the easy part, if you have the political will.

    We spend tens of billions annually simply on entitlements for illegal aliens. Allowing Medicare to actually negotiate for the best prices on drugs would save tens of billions annually (see the Medicare Prescription Drug Price Negotiation Act, which has been trying to get past Big Pharma for a decade now). Heck, we could allow corporate profits parked overseas (money from which the USA never sees a penny) to be repatriated at a lower tax rate and make 100-200B in an instant. We spend 5-10 billion annually on the United Nations if you need some pocket change.

    Not only would you pay for the most successful government program in history, you'd be a hero for cleaning up wasteful government spending, and everyone involved would get re-elected.

    You could take a "toe in the water" approach and start it as a workfare program, to replace welfare for those able-bodied. Incent them with some extra $$ over welfare, that's not hard to do. That would give you a much smaller workforce, but also a much smaller financial footprint. Maybe you have a workforce of 5,000 instead of 10 million, but that's still quite a lot of labor. If it looks like it's working, scale it up, or just be happy with a trickle instead of a flood, something is better than nothing...
     

    rotor

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    Heh. Turn off more than 80 programs that 50M people take advantage of to not even cover the bill for a national service program. No politician is going to do that.
    How do you know it won't cover the bill? Right now 8% of our budget is welfare. If you take someone off of welfare now and they don't go back on it you reduce future welfare. The benefit would be twofold, reduce welfare and give the individual more of a rewarding life. Hopefully more rewarding.
     

    Axxe55

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    Even more so their welfare check.

    That is another area of government spending that needs to be overhauled, or reformed. There are too many able-bodied and healthy people drawing welfare and benefits, that their only problems are being lazy and a deadbeat.

    I'll bet if there was some requirement of having to work to be able to draw welfare or benefits from the government, many of them would drop off the welfare rolls!
     

    Axxe55

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    Younggun; All,

    Actually, I have something a LOT more organized than "hand them a yellow vest & a trash-bag" in mind. - What I have in mind is two years of National Service FOR EVERY 18YO & that is quite like the old CCC
    I foresee a day going something like this, Monday-Friday:

    Reveille at 0500
    BIG breakfast at 0600
    HS completion or community college technical courses 0730 until 1130
    Lunch at 1200
    Form for work projects at 1300
    Work over a 1700
    Supper at 1800
    Study hall at 1900
    Lights Out at 2130.

    Saturday 0800-1700 Supervised games & assorted work projects (as necessary)
    Recreation/Dances each Sat night
    Sunday religious services & private time.

    NO SALARY for trainees but "3 hots & an Army cot" as well as an allowance of say 20.oo per week.

    NOTE: This is a 1st draft of my ideas & contributions. or improvements are SOLICITED from members.

    yours, satx


    Sounds good in theory, but with the mentality of today's youth, it would never happen. And why should they? Mommy and Daddy will support their lazy butts!

    My grandfather worked in the CCC program back in the 1930's. He learned a trade as well. He learned how to operate many different types of heavy construction equipment and other than four years in the European Theater, he put that trade to work supporting a family.

    I think most of today's youth, want to show up just enough to get a paycheck. They don't care anything actually working.
     

    satx78247

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    Sounds good in theory, but with the mentality of today's youth, it would never happen. And why should they? Mommy and Daddy will support their lazy butts!

    My grandfather worked in the CCC program back in the 1930's. He learned a trade as well. He learned how to operate many different types of heavy construction equipment and other than four years in the European Theater, he put that trade to work supporting a family.

    I think most of today's youth, want to show up just enough to get a paycheck. They don't care anything actually working.

    Axxe55,

    Are you perchance missing that this is NATIONAL SERVICE, like being drafted into the military., as SZ & ISREAL do.

    Don't show up or fail to meet the requirements means FOREVER BARRED from RECEIVING WELFARE or other FEDERAL BENEFITS.

    yours, satx
     
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    Axxe55

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    Axxe55,

    Are you perchance missing that this is NATIONAL SERVICE, like being drafted into the military., as SZ & ISREAL do.

    yours, satx

    I do understand that, but to do that, there would have to be laws passed in order to get it done.

    How many politicians do you think would sign off on such laws?

    My guess? Not enough to get it passed into law. That bill would die on the floor.
     

    toddnjoyce

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    How do you know it won't cover the bill? Right now 8% of our budget is welfare. If you take someone off of welfare now and they don't go back on it you reduce future welfare. The benefit would be twofold, reduce welfare and give the individual more of a rewarding life. Hopefully more rewarding.

    Because direct payments are a just a small fraction of the total federal welfare outlay. Hell, you’d be surprised at the number of enlisted families that receive welfare benefits because their income is below the federal poverty line.
     

    satx78247

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    Because direct payments are a just a small fraction of the total federal welfare outlay. Hell, you’d be surprised at the number of enlisted families that receive welfare benefits because their income is below the federal poverty line.


    toddnjoyce,

    YES & that situation is a NATIONAL DISGRACE!!!!
    (RAISE JUNIOR ENLISTED PAY NOW.)

    yours, satx
     

    southtexaspilot

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    I disagree with compulsory service. In my opinion there are two things that make our current military great. These opinions come from years of traveling and working with foreign units.

    1) Voluntary. Yes there are those that don’t want to be there. This happens in any occupation. But for the most part we have willing volunteers that do their job. Equipment is well maintained and functions when called upon.

    2) Career option. Compulsory service creates a massive turnover of knowledge. Most do not stay beyond their commitment. A volunteer force with career soldiers ensures that knowledge is passed down onto the next soldier and that there is a competent chain of command.

    I know we all knew that one skate private or that one dumbass XO. I see these as generalizations and feel they apply as a whole.

    W


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    Axxe55

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    I disagree with compulsory service. In my opinion there are two things that make our current military great. These opinions come from years of traveling and working with foreign units.

    1) Voluntary. Yes there are those that don’t want to be there. This happens in any occupation. But for the most part we have willing volunteers that do their job. Equipment is well maintained and functions when called upon.

    2) Career option. Compulsory service creates a massive turnover of knowledge. Most do not stay beyond their commitment. A volunteer force with career soldiers ensures that knowledge is passed down onto the next soldier and that there is a competent chain of command.

    I know we all knew that one skate private or that one dumbass XO. I see these as generalizations and feel they apply as a whole.

    W


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    Excellent points.

    I started this thread sort of undecided, and not really leaning one way or the other, but after some careful reading of many posts, I am leaning more towards a volunteer armed services. I see more problems arising than being solved by having a mandatory service time for everyone when they turn a certain age.
     

    satx78247

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    I do understand that, but to do that, there would have to be laws passed in order to get it done.

    How many politicians do you think would sign off on such laws?

    My guess? Not enough to get it passed into law. That bill would die on the floor.

    Axxe55,

    UNLESS WE TRY, we will NEVER know.
    (In 1981, when RWR was new in office, any number of Congress members, including numerous Democrats, were POSITIVE about the idea.
    (In case you don't know REAGAN was a CONFIRMED New Deal "believer" & friend of both FDR & JFK.)

    yours, satx
     
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