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New G2 Research "RIP" Ammo

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  • Shooter McGavin

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    I caught all the jazz on another forum earlier today. Gimmick or not from the comments that were posted there's already plenty of folks lining up to get their hands on them. I think I'm just gonna stick with what I've got until there's some hard data produced on the actual Ammo's performance.
    DK Firearms
     

    London

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    I was thinking about this ammo this morning, and it occurred to me that their philosophy for what they want the bullet to do is a total 180 from what is currently considered ideal (for a handgun round). For example, quality bonded hollowpoints in a medium to heavy weight are considered the ideal. The weight gives them good momentum which they need to reach vital organs, and the bonding helps prevent bullet/jacket separation. The theory is that you want the bullet to remain in one big, heavy piece. If any parts separate or fragment the bullet loses weight which reduces momentum. The bigger hole a good HP incidentally makes is a nice after-effect.

    The RIP is designed to do the total opposite- fragment immediately and send a lightweight, tiny piece of lead traveling too far forward. This really seems like the worst of both worlds- under-penetration with the expansion, over-penetration with the tiny main fragment.

    This fragmenting bullet philosophy works well with the aforementioned PDX-1 rifle rounds because conventional FMJ rifle rounds move so fast they often pass all the way through the human body with plenty of energy to spare. With PDX-1 .223 half the bullet fragments making a huge hole while the other half travels forward to reach vitals which may not have otherwise been reached (shooting someone straight down the arm, for example). The goal of the PDX-1 .223 is to take all that energy that is usually wasted and instead dump it all into the target in a controlled way which allows vitals to be reached. It does this very well.

    Rifle rounds have so much velocity that their energy itself is actually a wounding mechanism- stretching tissue until it ruptures (this is especially true of fragmenting rifle rounds). Handguns do not have nearly enough velocity to use energy as a wounding mechanism- any stretch cavities they make are temporary and return to normal size, minus a wound-tract which measures nearly the exact size of the bullet that made it.

    The same company that makes PDX-1 .223 uses a more conventional, bonded, non-fragmenting HP design for their PDX-1 handgun rounds. That should tell you something.

    So in short, the same concept that works spectacularly for rifle rounds won't work for handgun rounds because handguns just ain't got enough juice to pull off the same trick. Your .357 doesn't even come close and the RIP definitely won't, either.
     
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    SC-Texas

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    Can anyone find the forum and the thread in which g2 research said they used jello gel?
     

    Younggun

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    What is "jello gel"?

    In the video it's pretty obvious that they used ClearBallistics gel.

    How is it obvious? You can buy gelatin mix, the same used to make jello, and mix it to make a clear gelatin. Depending on how it's mixed it can be pretty firm or pretty "giggly".

    Making a weak mix would cause penetration to appear much greater than what you would get from ballistics gel.
     

    ShootingTheBull

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    Sorry, should have spelled out more. Having six blocks of the clear stuff, and hundreds of pounds of the organic stuff (which is not "jello", it's ballistic gelatin, a different product) it was pretty obvious TO ME that it was the clear stuff.

    Clear gel (the synthetic stuff) isn't mixed, it isn't something that you prepare to a specific ratio, it just *is* what it is. You remelt it and reuse it. There's no formula with the clear stuff. You can't cut it with water, water is really bad for it. So it's a one-block-fits-all solution (unless, of course, they went to the manufacturer and had them make a specific "watered down" batch, which would be highly suspect, I doubt the mfr would do it, and it would be a deception that would be revealed on day one the first time any user with cleargel put it to the test.)

    The organic stuff isn't clear, it's yellow-ish. Ballistic gel is a lot clearer than "jello", but even so there's a very decided yellow tint to it, that it didn't look like what the video showed. Further, ballistic gel (the organic stuff) represents the damage in the temporary stretch cavity quite differently from how synthetic gel does (the clear stuff). Having shot hundreds of blocks of both, I would feel confident in saying that they did not use organic gel for their video, it looks like they used clear gel.

    Which is okay; I mean, again, it's a lot harder to screw up the clear stuff than it is the organic stuff! The organic stuff has to be mixed in a very precise way, at specific temperatures, at specific ratios, stored at specific temperatures, and shot at specific temperatures; a variation from that procedure can lead to inaccurate results. With the clear stuff, most of that goes away -- it's stable at room temperature, it can be shot at any reasonable temperature from 40 degrees to 90 degrees or more, and it always delivers consistent results.


    Now -- could they be pulling a fraud on us and be using some diluted mixture or faking it somehow, or using dessert gelatin to make some low-resistance fake block of nonstandard nonsense? Sure, anything's possible, but it would be PROFOUNDLY stupid of them to do so, because such a fraud would be unmasked with the very first test by anyone who knows what they're doing. So I don't expect that that's what they've done. I will grant that it's possible, but I don't think any manufacturer in today's interconnected world would be so dumb as to try a stunt like that.

    I'm trying to get ahold of some of this stuff now. I'll be glad to test it in both properly-prepared organic gelatin, and in the clear stuff. We will get to the bottom of what the true performance is, soon enough. But I would be really surprised if they've gone to the trouble to make some sort of fake gel; that would be a pretty underhanded move, and I just don't think any ammo manufacturer with a functional brain would be so foolish as to try that... would they?
     

    Stumpy

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    At this point, I would say training and mindset are the vastly more important factors people should be investing their time and energy in, as opposed to looking for the next "magical" bullet. There is no magic bullet that will do exactly what people want, and that can serve as a substitute for a lack of mindset, lack of will, etc.

    Amen.


    From the desk of a literate squirrel named Leonard.
     

    Younggun

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    Sorry, should have spelled out more. Having six blocks of the clear stuff, and hundreds of pounds of the organic stuff (which is not "jello", it's ballistic gelatin, a different product) it was pretty obvious TO ME that it was the clear stuff.

    Clear gel (the synthetic stuff) isn't mixed, it isn't something that you prepare to a specific ratio, it just *is* what it is. You remelt it and reuse it. There's no formula with the clear stuff. You can't cut it with water, water is really bad for it. So it's a one-block-fits-all solution (unless, of course, they went to the manufacturer and had them make a specific "watered down" batch, which would be highly suspect, I doubt the mfr would do it, and it would be a deception that would be revealed on day one the first time any user with cleargel put it to the test.)

    The organic stuff isn't clear, it's yellow-ish. Ballistic gel is a lot clearer than "jello", but even so there's a very decided yellow tint to it, that it didn't look like what the video showed. Further, ballistic gel (the organic stuff) represents the damage in the temporary stretch cavity quite differently from how synthetic gel does (the clear stuff). Having shot hundreds of blocks of both, I would feel confident in saying that they did not use organic gel for their video, it looks like they used clear gel.

    Which is okay; I mean, again, it's a lot harder to screw up the clear stuff than it is the organic stuff! The organic stuff has to be mixed in a very precise way, at specific temperatures, at specific ratios, stored at specific temperatures, and shot at specific temperatures; a variation from that procedure can lead to inaccurate results. With the clear stuff, most of that goes away -- it's stable at room temperature, it can be shot at any reasonable temperature from 40 degrees to 90 degrees or more, and it always delivers consistent results.


    Now -- could they be pulling a fraud on us and be using some diluted mixture or faking it somehow, or using dessert gelatin to make some low-resistance fake block of nonstandard nonsense? Sure, anything's possible, but it would be PROFOUNDLY stupid of them to do so, because such a fraud would be unmasked with the very first test by anyone who knows what they're doing. So I don't expect that that's what they've done. I will grant that it's possible, but I don't think any manufacturer in today's interconnected world would be so dumb as to try a stunt like that.

    I'm trying to get ahold of some of this stuff now. I'll be glad to test it in both properly-prepared organic gelatin, and in the clear stuff. We will get to the bottom of what the true performance is, soon enough. But I would be really surprised if they've gone to the trouble to make some sort of fake gel; that would be a pretty underhanded move, and I just don't think any ammo manufacturer with a functional brain would be so foolish as to try that... would they?

    Thanks for the detailed explanation.

    Figure it shouldn't be long before lots of videos from unbiased sources start popping up.
     

    SC-Texas

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    What is "jello gel"?

    In the video it's pretty obvious that they used ClearBallistics gel.

    Two issues.

    1. I don't think it's obvious, but that's me and a lack of understanding.
    2. It does not appear to be calibrated. And, even I know or, think I know, that ballistic gel is calibrated before each test by shooting a BB into it.
    In December 1988, the FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit (FTU) designed and implemented the FBI Ammunition Tests. The test designs are based on research and consultation with experts in the fields of wound ballistics, forensic pathology, wound research and medical research. The tissue simulant utilized in FBI ballistic tests is Vyse Ordinance Gelatin.
    The mixture is 10%, by weight. The mentioned research shows that properly calibrated 10% ordinance gelatin is a reliable tissue simulant. Calibration of ballistic gelatin is verified by firing a .177 steel BB at 590 feet per second (fps), plus or minus 15 fps, into the gelatin, resulting in 8.5 centimeters (cm), plus or minus 1 cm, penetration (2.95" – 3.74"). During FBI tests, any gelatin blocks, which fail the calibration test, are discarded. Calibration results are not published due to the Pass/Fail nature of the test.

    several RKIs have commented that the girl does not look or behave like it us properly calibrated.

    3. I was told, in a conversation, that one of the g2 people wrote that they either did not use ballistic girl of that it was not properly calibrated on a forum. I am looking for that link. If it exists.
     

    ShootingTheBull

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    Organic ballistic gel needs to be calibrated immediately before (and, ideally, immediately after) it is shot. Variations in preparation, or from batch to batch, need to be accounted for with each and every block, and the density of the gel changes rapidly with variations in temperature. Organic gel really needs to be shot at 4 to 5 degrees C; any warmer than that and it's likely too soft. (That's for 10% gel; 20% gel is shot at much warmer temperatures).

    The synthetic gel doesn't really need to be calibrated. It just is what it is. If you calibrate it once when you first get it, then it's likely going to stay at that same calibration throughout its useful life. And the only way it wouldn't calibrate the first time, would be through manufacturing error; if it's made right, it will stay consistent. Then again, you still have to be reasonable and cautious with it; you can't leave blocks of it in direct sunlight for any length of time, for example, as sunlight will definitely soften it up. To me, it most definitely looks like they were using synthetic gel, and it looks like they're indoors, so I would doubt it was overly softened by sunlight... but, again, that's me giving them the benefit of the doubt that they're not trying to be deliberately misleading. It COULD turn out that they are trying hard to be deliberately misleading -- but if so, such fraud will be revealed, have no doubt. That's why I'm more inclined to think that they're not being overly misleading.

    It would be quite interesting to see any acknowledgement of them using nonstandard or non-ballistic gel for their video. If they did so, that's such a major no-no that it's not even funny. But I would definitely want to see a quote directly from them about that, of course.
     

    SC-Texas

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    Btw. What is the FBI standard?

    FBI Ballistic Test Protocol:

    Briefly, the performance standards are simple. A handgun bullet must consistently penetrate a minimum of 12 inches of tissue in order to reliably penetrate vital organs within the human target regardless of the angle of impact or intervening obstacles such as arms, clothing, glass, etc. Penetration of 18 inches is even better. Given minimum penetration, the only means of increasing wound effectiveness is to make the hole bigger. This increases the amount of vital tissue damaged, increases the chance of damaging vital tissue with a marginally placed shot, and increases the potential for quicker blood loss. This is important because, with the single exception of damaging the central nervous system, the only way to force incapacitation upon an unwilling adversary is to cause enough blood loss to starve the brain of its oxygen and/or drop blood pressure to zero. This takes time, and the faster hemorrhage can occur the better.


    The FBI Ammunition Test Protocol is a series of practically oriented tests to measure a bullet's ability to meet these performance standards. The result is an assessment of a bullet's ability to inflict effective wounds after defeating various intervening obstacles commonly present in law enforcement shootings. The overall results of a test are thus indicative of that specific cartridge's suitability for the wide range of conditions in which law enforcement officers engage in shootings.

    The test media used by the FBI to simulate living tissue is 10% Ballistic Gelatin (Kind & Knox 250-A), mixed by weight (i.e., one pound of gelatin to 9 pounds of water). The gelatin is stored at 4° Centigrade (39.2° Fahrenheit) and shot within 20 minutes of being removed from the refrigerator. The temperature of the gelatin is critical, because penetration changes significantly with temperature. This specific gelatin mix was determined and calibrated by the U.S. Army Wound Ballistics Research Laboratory, Presidio of San Francisco, to produce the same penetration results as that obtained in actual living tissue. The 10 % gelatin has been correlated against the actual results of over 200 shooting incidents. Each gelatin block is calibrated before use to insure its composition is within defined parameters. Copies of the test protocol are available upon request for those interested in duplication the testing or reviewing the procedures in greater detail.


    The gelatin blocks for handgun rounds are approximately six inches square and 16 inches long. As necessary, additional blocks are lined up in contact with each other to insure containment of the bullet's total penetration. Each shot's penetration is measured to the nearest 0.25 inch. The projectile is recovered, weighed, and measured for expansion by averaging its greatest diameter with its smallest diameter.


    The Ammunition Test Protocol using this gelatin is composed of eight test events. In each test event, five shots are fired. A new gelatin block and new test materials are used for each individual shot. The complete test consists of firing 40 shots. Each test event is discussed below in order. All firing in these eight tests events is done with a typical service weapon representative of those used by law enforcement. The weapon used is fully described in each test report.


    Test Event 1: Bare Gelatin The gelatin block is bare, and shot at a range of ten feet measured from the muzzle to the front of the block. This test event correlates FBI results with those being obtained by other researchers, few of whom shoot into anything other than bare gelatin. It is common to obtain the greatest expansion in this test. Rounds which do not meet the standards against bare gelatin tend to be unreliable in the more practical test events that follow.
    Test Event 2: Heavy Clothing The gelatin block is covered with four layers of clothing: one layer of cotton T-shirt material (48 threads per inch); one layer of cotton shirt material (80 threads per inch); a 10 ounce down comforter in a cambric shell cover (232 threads per inch); and one layer of 13 ounce cotton denim (50 threads per inch). This simulates typical cold weather wear. The block is shot at ten feet, measured from the muzzle to the front of the block.
    Test Event 3: Steel Two pieces of 20 gauge, hot rolled steel with a galvanized finish are set three inches apart. The steel is in six inch squares. The gelatin block is covered with Light Clothing and placed 18 inches behind the rear most piece of steel. The shot is made at a distance of 10 feet measured from the muzzle to the front of the first piece of steel. Light Clothing is one layer of the above described T-shirt material and one layer of the above described cotton shirt material, and is used as indicated in all subsequent test events.


    The steel used is the heaviest gauge steel commonly found in automobile doors. This test simulates the weakest part of a car door. In all car doors, there is an area, or areas, where the heaviest obstacle is nothing more that two pieces of 20 gauge steel.
    Test Event 4: Wallboard Two pieces of half-inch standard gypsum board are set 3.5 inches apart. The pieces are six inches square. The gelatin block is covered with Light Clothing and and placed 18 inches behind the rear most piece of gypsum. The shot is made at a distance of ten feet, measured from the muzzle to the front of the first piece of gypsum. This test event simulates a typical interior building wall.
    Test Event 5: Plywood One piece of three-quarter inch AA fir plywood is used. The piece is six inches square. The gelatin block is covered with Light Clothing and placed 18 inches behind the rear surface of the plywood. The shot is made at a distance of ten feet, measured from the muzzle to the front surface of the plywood. This test event simulates the resistance of typical wooden doors or construction timbers.
    Test Event 6: Automobile Glass One piece of A.S.I. one-quarter inch laminated automobile safety glass measuring 15x18 inches is set at an angle of 45° to the horizontal. The line of bore of the weapon is offset 15° to the side, resulting in a compound angle of impact for the bullet upon the glass. The gelatin block is covered with Light Clothing and placed 18 inches behind the glass. The shot is made at a distance of ten feet, measured from the muzzle to the center of the glass pane. This test event with its two angles simulates a shot taken at the driver of a car from the left front quarter of the vehicle, and not directly in front of it.
    Test Event 7: Heavy Clothing at 20 yards This event repeats Test Event 2 but at a range of 20 yards, measured from the muzzle to the front of the gelatin. This test event assesses the effects of increased range and consequently decreased velocity.
    Test Event 8: Automobile Glass at 20 yards This event repeats Test Event 6 but at a range of 20 yards, measured from the muzzle to the front of the glass, and without the 15° offset. The shot is made from straight in front of the glass, simulating a shot at the driver of a car bearing down on the shooter.
    In addition to the above described series of test events, each cartridge is tested for velocity and accuracy. Twenty rounds are fired through a test barrel and twenty rounds are fired through the service weapon used in the penetration tests. All velocities are measured and reported.


    Two ten-shot groups are fired from the test barrel, and two from the service weapon used, at 25 yards. They are measured from center to center of the two most widely spaced holes, averaged and reported.


    Test barrel results demonstrate a round's potential independent of any weapon factors which can affect performance. Test barrel results are the purest measure of inherent capability for accuracy and velocity. Repeating these tests with a service weapon shows how well the cartridge/weapon combination may realize that potential.



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    Rogue

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    Forget the gel testing.

    I'd be much more worried about issues with chambering and wearing/scarring the feed ramp on any gun this is used in.
     

    Younggun

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    Forget the gel testing.

    I'd be much more worried about issues with chambering and wearing/scarring the feed ramp on any gun this is used in.

    Why would it do that? Not an issue with any other non-lead rounds.
     

    Andy

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    At this point, I would say training and mindset are the vastly more important factors people should be investing their time and energy in, as opposed to looking for the next "magical" bullet. There is no magic bullet that will do exactly what people want, and that can serve as a substitute for a lack of mindset, lack of will, etc.
    This.

    I wouldn't carry this ammo if they paid me.
     

    London

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    Forget the gel testing.

    I'd be much more worried about issues with chambering and wearing/scarring the feed ramp on any gun this is used in.

    It wouldn't wear your feed ramp out any faster than it wears your barrel out. It's simply a matter of soft metal versus very hard metal.
     

    SIG_Fiend

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    This.

    I wouldn't carry this ammo if they paid me.


    One of the documented OIS cases I saw a few years ago really drove this point home for me as far as ammo being one of the far lesser factors at play. Multiple officers, several with pistols, one with a 12ga, ordering a suspect to the ground (I believe he had an edged weapon, but my memory is fuzzy). The LEOs with pistols shot the guy several times, which didn't put him down. The LEO with the 12ga put a SLUG through the guy's heart at near point blank range, completely obliterating his heart. The suspect continued to fight for another 7-10 seconds before passing out from loss of blood/pressure, shortly thereafter dying. Even if it happened in the middle of a hospital, the guy still couldn't have possibly survived, yet sheer determination was enough to keep him fighting a bit longer anyways. Human beings are resilient.

    Magic bullets, magic calibers, magic guns, magic bolt-on parts, none of that stuff guarantees anything. What people are really buying when they're looking for that "magic" is a false sense of self-confidence.
     

    M. Sage

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    In the car biz, that goes by names like "mechanic in a bottle." People who stop and think for a second realize that skills don't come in a bottle or box, and that situations often require skills, not products.
     
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