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Ohio IRS Security Guard Draw Gun in Uniformed Sheriff’s Deputy

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  • benenglish

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    That's not an IRS security guard; the IRS doesn't employ security guards. It's also not a Federal Protective Service uniform. Like most small government offices, the guard is working for a private company under contract to provide security.

    IRS employees would all be happier if their security was provided by FPS officers who are always better trained than the private security contractors who usually do the job. If that had been an FPS officer, even though the Sheriff's Deputy was breaking the law by entering the office, the FPS officer would have exercised some reasonable discretion and just let him do his business and run along.

    smh
     

    Darkpriest667

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    That's not an IRS security guard; the IRS doesn't employ security guards. It's also not a Federal Protective Service uniform. Like most small government offices, the guard is working for a private company under contract to provide security.

    IRS employees would all be happier if their security was provided by FPS officers who are always better trained than the private security contractors who usually do the job. If that had been an FPS officer, even though the Sheriff's Deputy was breaking the law by entering the office, the FPS officer would have exercised some reasonable discretion and just let him do his business and run along.

    smh

    Agreed, but we're all clear, the sheriff violated the law and got no punishment.
     

    Hoji

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    That's not an IRS security guard; the IRS doesn't employ security guards. It's also not a Federal Protective Service uniform. Like most small government offices, the guard is working for a private company under contract to provide security.

    IRS employees would all be happier if their security was provided by FPS officers who are always better trained than the private security contractors who usually do the job. If that had been an FPS officer, even though the Sheriff's Deputy was breaking the law by entering the office, the FPS officer would have exercised some reasonable discretion and just let him do his business and run along.

    smh
    Except that building houses a lot of private businesses as well
     

    benenglish

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    the sheriff violated the law
    Arguably, that's correct.
    and got no punishment
    Apparently.

    Technically, the security guard was probably adhering to the letter of his training. Having talked an armed intruder into leaving the office, thus keeping the employees out of harm's way, his training probably required that he make a reasonable effort to keep said armed intruder from leaving the scene where he might prove a threat to the general populace.

    Under stress, people will dogmatically stick to their training even when it makes no sense.

    Personally, I prefer folks to be smart enough to snap out of it and realize there are times when you close the playbook and say to yourself "My training doesn't apply. I'm just going to do what I think is common sense, even if it gets me fired."

    At this point, I'm sure the bosses of that guard wish he had simply asked the Deputy to leave then filed an incident report which would have resulted in a formal complaint to the Sheriff. At that point, you let the suits handle it.
     

    benenglish

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    Except that building houses a lot of private businesses as well
    Good point. That's why I referred to "small" government offices. Federal offices inside non-federal buildings shared with private sector companies virtually never get Federal Protective Service officers assigned on a continuing basis. They drop by and do lots of things to help but they don't stick around unless there's a current, credible threat in place.

    Those small offices also make it tougher on the private security guards in other ways. They can't maintain perimeter security. They couldn't catch the deputy at the entrance to the building to give him a heads-up, for example, because he wasn't on federal property until he walked into the office.
     

    Sublime

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    I think the guard overreacted but ultimately was in the right here. He did his job. He couldn't have known if the badge and uniform were fake so he took appropriate action.

    He should have been the one to call 911 though.

    So when the guard tells the deputy he will have to go back to his car and disarm, the guard is doing his job by drawing down on him after that? What is the justification? The deputy doesn't have to like the IRS policy and he won't be served if he refuses to disarm but come on drawing down on a deputy in uniform that has posed no threat is NOT his duty, hence his arrest. Kinda hard to call 911 also when you are pointing a gun at someone and I still fault the clerk or receptionist for calling in the first place.
    Of course I have been to all 3 offices here several times to deal with a matter that was their fault and they were all tools except for the last lady on the 800 # line that actually helped me so I am a bit biased against the IRS and their process.
     

    Sublime

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    To be fair, that cop could have just gone back to his car and removed his weapon and this never would have escalated.

    Did the guard react badly? Yes, but the cop didn't help either.

    "Dear Sheriff, while trying to clarify a personal matter with the IRS, I was told by security to disarm in my squad and come back. I did so and upon my return found that the squad window was broken and the dept. issued sidearm was stolen."

    I guessed I missed it in the thread, can someone point out to me where the deputy violated the law? Going to Federal District Court was always a fun experience. We were not Deputy Marshals or FPS so we were not qualified to be armed in court apparently. Outside no problem though......
     
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    I guessed I missed it in the thread, can someone point out to me where the deputy violated the law?

    He was going in there for a personal matter, not official Police business.


    18 USC 930: Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities
    From Title 18-CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDUREPART I-CRIMESCHAPTER 44-FIREARMS

    §930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities
    (a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

    (b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.

    (c) A person who kills any person in the course of a violation of subsection (a) or (b), or in the course of an attack on a Federal facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon, or attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be punished as provided in sections 1111, 1112, 1113, and 1117.

    (d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to-

    (1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;

    (2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or

    (3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.


    (e)(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal court facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

    (2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to conduct which is described in paragraph (1) or (2) of subsection (d).

    (f) Nothing in this section limits the power of a court of the United States to punish for contempt or to promulgate rules or orders regulating, restricting, or prohibiting the possession of weapons within any building housing such court or any of its proceedings, or upon any grounds appurtenant to such building.

    (g) As used in this section:

    (1) The term "Federal facility" means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.

    (2) The term "dangerous weapon" means a weapon, device, instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a blade of less than 2½ inches in length.

    (3) The term "Federal court facility" means the courtroom, judges' chambers, witness rooms, jury deliberation rooms, attorney conference rooms, prisoner holding cells, offices of the court clerks, the United States attorney, and the United States marshal, probation and parole offices, and adjoining corridors of any court of the United States.
     

    jetcycles

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    Had the deputy handled his personal business on his personal time, he (likely) wouldn't have found himself in this predicament. I'm kinda surprised that the deputy filed suit for the mental anguish caused by having a weapon drawn on him...oh the court precedent that could potentially set, I wonder how many times he's drawn his weapon on others? I will applaud the deputy for his role in de escalating the situation, that could've taken a turn for the worse in a few milliseconds.

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    Sublime

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    Had the deputy handled his personal business on his personal time, he (likely) wouldn't have found himself in this predicament. I'm kinda surprised that the deputy filed suit for the mental anguish caused by having a weapon drawn on him...oh the court precedent that could potentially set, I wonder how many times he's drawn his weapon on others? I will applaud the deputy for his role in de escalating the situation, that could've taken a turn for the worse in a few milliseconds.

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    So you never handled some personal business on your work time, ever? Wow, you are a better man than me.

    I won't requote the lenghty reply about the federal statute but can you tell me with 100% certainty that the deputy in uniform in his county broke the law? That is like saying when they take their meal break they aren't LEOs. I mean Jesus. Let's take the uniform and badge out of it. You are a civilian with a LTC and you go to your local IRS office that they lease out in a regular building.
    You go thru the metal detectors and contract security says no go, go back to your car to disarm and you say BS so they draw down on you. Is that right? Let's use some common sense.

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    Darkpriest667

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    So you never handled some personal business on your work time, ever? Wow, you are a better man than me.

    I won't requote the lenghty reply about the federal statute but can you tell me with 100% certainty that the deputy in uniform in his county broke the law? That is like saying when they take their meal break they aren't LEOs. I mean Jesus. Let's take the uniform and badge out of it. You are a civilian with a LTC and you go to your local IRS office that they lease out in a regular building.
    You go thru the metal detectors and contract security says no go, go back to your car to disarm and you say BS so they draw down on you. Is that right? Let's use some common sense.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

    If you tried to walk into a federal office or building with a firearm after going through a metal detector they wouldn't ask you to go back to your car. You'd have been arrested.

    LEOs get a huge amount of leeway that frankly they shouldn't. Do I hold them to a higher standard? Hell yes I do.
     

    avvidclif

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    After a few hours of thinking about the whole deal I need to modify my comment. I can remember getting a call to take a theft report at the Dallas VA Hosp. I went to the hospital in a squad car, on duty, and in response to a call. I was informed at the loading dock that I would have to check my weapon before going into the hospital. Seemed strange but I complied and went on about my business. Later checking revealed the guard was correct. Federal property is a different animal. An earlier posting seemed to indicate maybe it has changed a little. Don't know.
     

    Sublime

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    If you tried to walk into a federal office or building with a firearm after going through a metal detector they wouldn't ask you to go back to your car. You'd have been arrested.

    LEOs get a huge amount of leeway that frankly they shouldn't. Do I hold them to a higher standard? Hell yes I do.

    Let me answer your first paragraph - Again are you 100% sure? If it is a complete and solely a Federal Building, maybe. The problem is the IRS leases out space in commercial buildings so when they go thru the metal detector, the are not officially in "Federal Office Space". I am referencing the Farmers Branch IRS office (hey they have free parking at least) specifically.

    That said, let's go with your paragraph as 100% valid. Why wasn't the deputy arrested? Was he shown leeway? so he got leeway to not be arrested but not to have a gun drawn on him?? That is not making sense.

    I agree, we should hold LEO to a higher standard but don't agree with you that they shouldn't be shown leeway. So any place that has a "no firearms sign", they should not be able to go? So you are ok with a customer complaining that she was scared the cops in Tempe were armed and she wanted them to leave.? If a business owner wants to give them a discount for eating there, they shouldn't take it? Everyone else can take liberties to get some stuff done on work time except the LEOs?? I mean it's not like a judge or doctor or lawyer or teacher or fireman has never used their position to cut thru some red tape........
     

    majormadmax

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    18 U.S. Code § 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities

    (d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to—

    (1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;

    If the deputy was there on personal business, it could be interpreted that he wasn't lawfully performing an official duty.
     

    majormadmax

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    Let me answer your first paragraph - Again are you 100% sure? If it is a complete and solely a Federal Building, maybe. The problem is the IRS leases out space in commercial buildings so when they go thru the metal detector, the are not officially in "Federal Office Space". I am referencing the Farmers Branch IRS office (hey they have free parking at least) specifically.

    Same code I posted above...

    (g) As used in this section:

    (1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.
     

    Sublime

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    18 U.S. Code § 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities

    (d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to—

    (1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;

    If the deputy was there on personal business, it could be interpreted that he wasn't lawfully performing an official duty.

    Who is doing the interpreting? Is the IRS going to use their own enforcement arm to affect an arrest post incident after an investigation? They gonna pass it onto the FBI? Maybe the guards should have detained him for clearly violaitng Federal Law and then called local police to arrest him? How did the contract security guard know he was not on "official business?" It's almost like some of you think the deputy should have been arrested? Again, I say Buddha damn.

    What about the guard drawing down on him? I mean why not affect an arrest then and there since you know he went to the trouble of pointing a gun at an armed individual clearly posing as a deputy? It would seem the prudent thing to do to avoid further issues of the lawsuit. The guard probably makes about $20-25 an hour according to prior Paragon job postings but the company has deep pockets so I am sure that is what the officer is going for. It is exactly what I would do.

    Maybe, just maybe, the security guard stepped in it and the company failed to train him properly? We use to call that vicarious liability.
     
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    Sublime

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    Same code I posted above...

    (g) As used in this section:

    (1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.

    Now this is very interesting here. The Dept. of Education has a whole floor in our building. Never been on their floor (never had a need) but I go armed (concealed) into the building every day. I see Constables, DART, and DPD uniformed officers going armed into our building every day which is a commercial building. I think that is where the "part thereof owned or leased by the Feds" becomes the critical guideline in using common sense. I know the Feds would never want to pay for security to screen everyone coming into our building and I know the management company would never lease to them if that was what they intended.

    Now that is totally different than going into a Federal Courthouse or Detention Center but that is not what we are talking about here.
     
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