On-Line LTC course and ATF Residental licenses

[boomgoesthedynamite]

Firearm safety and familiarity should be taught in school. That takes care of a part of the problem in 15 years.

Regarding the next 15 years, how about a change to the business model? Instead of offering an LTC course, why not offer a new shooter course that involves safety, education, familiriaty and after that it includes a free LTC course. Don't require anything, but offer it. Let people choose what they want to do.

I have seen this topic come up a couple of times, and I have a question that isn't directed at anyone, but more of a curiousity. Do people make a living as an LTC instructor or is it a supplemental income? I would assume for an FFL it is just an add on item based on how infrequently classes seem to be offered.

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[Eli]

As far as (B)ATF(E) licensing residences, that stupidity started during the Clinton administration - "There more licensed gun dealers than gas stations, we've got to do SOMETHING!"
At one time - 20+ years ago - they wouldn't renew your FFL unless you had a sign visible from the street stating you were a gun dealer. And, if you leased the premises - residential or commercial - they wanted a letter from your landlord giving permission for an FFL!
Nowadays, my understanding is that you cannot run afoul of local zoning, and they decided they could enforce deed restrictions and refuse to license homes where businesses would be a violation.
Only way to win the game is to not play!

Eli

 

[benenglish]

...why not offer a new shooter course that involves safety, education, familiriaty and after that it includes a free LTC course. Don't require anything, but offer it. Let people choose what they want to do.

Based on feedback from every LTC instructor I've seen/heard address the issue, the reason such courses aren't offered is that no one wants them. People who have any idea how to shoot don't need them. People who have no idea how to shoot feel like it's an unnecessary upcharge that costs not just more money but also (and more importantly) more time.

The only people I've ever seen make money from an LTC add-on course are people who don't connect it to an LTC course. They find people with no experience who are afraid of the class, specifically the shooting test, and offer to charge them for a one-hour private lesson.

What's sad is that for every high-quality instructor who offers an hour of useful one-on-one coaching, there are a dozen charlatans who completely rip off their students. I know one indoor range that had to prohibit outside instructors from renting a lane for such lessons because the observed quality of instruction was so inferior. I once stood behind the line at that range and watched an "instructor" give a lesson that consisted mostly of the instructor doing mag dumps and shouting at the student about how great he was and how grievously he had injured their paper assailant, all while a significant minority of his shots were impacting the wall next to the target at ~3-5 yards.

 

[grtday]

My thoughts on this will probably be smug but I have no internet communication skills.

This can be discounted as a lie as the ATF just renewed my license today 11.02.2017. I am home based and have no storefront. I have also heard no scuttle from store front based dealers noting no renewals. For the record, distributors still send guns to my house also.

AdamT

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GREAT news! Glad it was wrong!

 

[Renegade]

As far as (B)ATF(E) licensing residences, that stupidity started during the Clinton administration - "There more licensed gun dealers than gas stations, we've got to do SOMETHING!"
At one time - 20+ years ago - they wouldn't renew your FFL unless you had a sign visible from the street stating you were a gun dealer. And, if you leased the premises - residential or commercial - they wanted a letter from your landlord giving permission for an FFL!
Nowadays, my understanding is that you cannot run afoul of local zoning, and they decided they could enforce deed restrictions and refuse to license homes where businesses would be a violation.
Only way to win the game is to not play!

Eli

25 years ago you filled out a form sent in $30 and got your license with no background check, prints, or anything. It was never easier. FFL reform of 1993 changed that.

 

[TheDan]

What are our legislators thinking and whose pockets will they be lining? Your thoughts please.

Sounds like they are trying to reduce the cost and complexity for people trying to get a licence.

Maybe you can get a job helping people sign up for Obamacare.

 

[benenglish]

Sounds like they are trying to reduce the cost and complexity for people trying to get a licence.

That may be the intention. I can see how online courses may reduce the complexity for some students.

However, the overall cost to get a license via the online course will almost certainly be higher.

Think of how the process will work. First, the online course will cost whatever it costs. Then the shooting test must be done. But how? The instructor who personally oversees that task must charge enough to make it worthwhile to come out for just a single student. Reputable teachers will likely charge their normal rate for a one-hour private lesson and that cost is almost always way higher than what is now charged for classroom LTC courses.

For the online option, whenever it finally becomes a reality, I strongly believe the total cost to the student for the entire process will be significantly higher than it is now.

 

[diesel1959]

That may be the intention. I can see how online courses may reduce the complexity for some students.

However, the overall cost to get a license via the online course will almost certainly be higher.

Think of how the process will work. First, the online course will cost whatever it costs. Then the shooting test must be done. But how? The instructor who personally oversees that task must charge enough to make it worthwhile to come out for just a single student. Reputable teachers will likely charge their normal rate for a one-hour private lesson and that cost is almost always way higher than what is now charged for classroom LTC courses.

For the online option, whenever it finally becomes a reality, I strongly believe the total cost to the student for the entire process will be significantly higher than it is now.

What if the online course is free? (Not saying it will be, but do we yet know?)

 

[TheDan]

Think of how the process will work. First, the online course will cost whatever it costs. Then the shooting test must be done. But how? The instructor who personally oversees that task must charge enough to make it worthwhile to come out for just a single student. Reputable teachers will likely charge their normal rate for a one-hour private lesson and that cost is almost always way higher than what is now charged for classroom LTC courses.

Why would they schedule it one on one if they don't do that with LTC classes now?

 

[MTA]

IDK about all this but I got my PA LTCF(their version of a CHL) by mailing in an application and getting fingerprints done at the Sheriffs station. I had it back in two weeks. No shooting and no classroom instruction. Knowledge of the laws is the responsibility of the individual.

Shouldn't need a class or a BS range test to carry a weapon concealed

 

[benenglish]

Why would they schedule it one on one if they don't do that with LTC classes now?

How are they going to do otherwise? Somehow they'd need to reach at least a dozen or so people who have taken the coursework online and get them to agree to all meet at the range at the same time. I can think of plenty of ways that process would fail to launch or fall apart along the way. It's tough for me to imagine it coming together.

Note I said tough, not impossible. I suppose some enterprising LTC instructor could advertise until they had 10 or 20 students who would promise to get the online course done by a certain date then all show up at the same time for an hour at the range for the shooting test.

Heck, it might work out better than that. The no-shows could be charged exorbitant rates for a one-on-one make-up test.

You might be on to something.

Still, I think that people who don't want to be subjected to sitting in a classroom with other folks for the class and written test are the types who are also willing to pay extra for one-on-one attention for the shooting portion.

Once the online courses become a reality, there are enough LTC instructors out there that they'll try every which way to make it work. A year after that, we'll know what the SOP will be.

I'm leaning toward the idea that online LTC training will go over just as well as the NRA's online training, i.e. no one will want it.

 

[TheDan]

I suppose some enterprising LTC instructor could advertise until they had 10 or 20 students who would promise to get the online course done by a certain date then all show up at the same time for an hour at the range for the shooting test.

Heck, it might work out better than that. The no-shows could be charged exorbitant rates for a one-on-one make-up test.

You might be on to something.

Right, after taking the online portion I would think it would be up to the person seeking a LTC to then contact an instructor (maybe proctor would be a better term) for the shooting portion. The instructor can schedule them however they like. They do the same with classes currently, right? Seems like it would be a benefit to them as they only have to spend an hour of range time instead of all that classroom time. I can see some instructors opting to not even offer the class.