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  • Hoji

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    Well I don't have your experience in wildlife biology for sure but I do know that I've had several spikes on my lease grow into rather nice deer and they weren't mutants....I also know a guy that raised a buck from a 2 day old fawn and the first year he grew spikes and in his second year he grew a perfect typical 8 pt rack. Gladiator Sunset was one of the biggest whitetails ever raised and at 2.5 he was a spike. Very few hunters that I know of will shoot a spike anymore unless they are sure he is over 2.5 years old and thats VERY rare. While I will give you credit that you must have a lot more education on the subject than myself I am a member of a hunting site with thousands of members and almost all will say that they won't cull young spikes anymore bc they often turn into very normal and productive bucks....surely you've noticed in your studies that finding a spike over 2.5 yrs old is highly rare?
    Yes. Spikes are generally yearlings. As I have stated they turn into asymmetrical deer in the vast majority of cases. That is one of the reasons Texas has a spike and doe season after the regular season ends. It is to clean up the gene pool. A lot of times, especially if nutrition is good during a deer 's pregnancy, and during the fawn's first six months, they will grow spikes. These are nicknamed "super spikes" the antlers are generally 3"-4" long but they are growing from a six month old deer. Nutrition can make a difference in antler growth as well, but not in genetics. Yes, some farm raised spikes will grow into big atypical bucks, but they will not be allowed to breed. Why? Because they are genetically inferior, and will pass the spike genes into the herd. An eight point yearling is going to be an eight point 5-1/2 year old. A spike in the wild might grow into a six point with no brow tines, but they tend to have less dense antlers and less symmetry.

    Deer are judged on their antlers, and their antlers alone when it comes to herd management. You want good antlers, kill spikes and kill the spikes that grow into 4 and 5 pointers the next year. That and kill a lot of does to take away the breeding possibility for those spikes that do mature.
     

    JSF

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    Lufkin
    Yes. Spikes are generally yearlings. As I have stated they turn into asymmetrical deer in the vast majority of cases. That is one of the reasons Texas has a spike and doe season after the regular season ends. It is to clean up the gene pool. A lot of times, especially if nutrition is good during a deer 's pregnancy, and during the fawn's first six months, they will grow spikes. These are nicknamed "super spikes" the antlers are generally 3"-4" long but they are growing from a six month old deer. Nutrition can make a difference in antler growth as well, but not in genetics. Yes, some farm raised spikes will grow into big atypical bucks, but they will not be allowed to breed. Why? Because they are genetically inferior, and will pass the spike genes into the herd. An eight point yearling is going to be an eight point 5-1/2 year old. A spike in the wild might grow into a six point with no brow tines, but they tend to have less dense antlers and less symmetry.

    Deer are judged on their antlers, and their antlers alone when it comes to herd management. You want good antlers, kill spikes and kill the spikes that grow into 4 and 5 pointers the next year. That and kill a lot of does to take away the breeding possibility for those spikes that do mature.

    An eight point yearling is going to be an eight point at 5?? Seriously? ? That's just horrible information.....some of the info you are stating as fact is fact ...but much of it is your opinion.....spikes at 1.5 often recover the following seasons and turn into perfectly normal bucks with typical racks so we will not shoot a spike until 2.5....I guess we will just have to disagree....have a good day sir :thumbup:

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    Hoji

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    An eight point yearling is going to be an eight point at 5?? Seriously? ? That's just horrible information.....some of the info you are stating as fact is fact ...but much of it is your opinion.....spikes at 1.5 often recover the following seasons and turn into perfectly normal bucks with typical racks so we will not shoot a spike until 2.5....I guess we will just have to disagree....have a good day sir :thumbup:

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    Did you read the 26 year research done by TPWD? You come into this thread, call me a liar, then scuttle off with" we will have to agree to disagree?

    Here is my opinion. Most hunters that pass on spikes do so not because they want to let it grow, but because they don't want to burn a tag on an expensive lease on a trash buck. That is only my opinion, everything else I have stated comes from years of observations in the field, in both low fence and high fence properties, as well as vetted research from people with years more experience in the field than I do, AND almost three decades of research devoted entirely to spikes and antler growth.

    Are there exceptions, sure, but exceptions only reinforce the rule.

    If you are going to call a man a liar, have the balls to invite him to lunch and say it to his face.
     
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    JSF

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    Lufkin
    Did you read the 26 year research done by TPWD? You come into this thread, call me a liar, then scuttle off with" we will have to agree to disagree?

    Here is my opinion. Most hunters that pass on spikes do so not because they want to let it grow, but because they don't want to burn a tag on an expensive lease on a trash buck. That is only my opinion, everything else I have stated comes from years of observations in the field, in both low fence and high fence properties, as well as vetted research from people with years more experience in the field than I do, AND almost three decades of research devoted entirely to spikes and antler growth.

    Are there exceptions, sure, but exceptions only reinforce the rule.

    If you are going to call a man a liar, have the balls to invite him to lunch and say it to his face.

    I didn't call you a liar I said your info is bad but your welcome to come to lunch with me anytime...if a buck hasnt reached anything but 8 points by the time he starts maturing then i agree with you to a certain degree but when your talking about a yearling then your on your own...don't get butthurt because people don't accept your opinions as the gospel.
     

    Hoji

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    My apologies. You and your anecdotal " I am on an internet hunting forum" is much more vetted information than that of nearly three decades of peer reviewed research on the matter. I stand corrected.
     

    JSF

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    My apologies. You and your anecdotal " I am on an internet hunting forum" is much more vetted information than that of nearly three decades of peer reviewed research on the matter. I stand corrected.

    I talked to a friend of mine who owns Southern Bayou Bucks in Louisiana just a few minutes ago and one of his bucks that was a 3 point last year as a yearling is now a perfect symmetrical 10 pt.
     
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    Hoji

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    I talked to a friend of mine who own Southern Bayou Bucks in Louisiana just a few minutes ago and one of his bucks that was a 3 point last year as a yearling is now a perfect symmetrical 10 pt.
    You are right. I stand corrected. Anecdotal exceptions are a much better guide than scientific research that has been vetted by an extensive peer review.
     

    JSF

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    Lufkin
    You are right. I stand corrected. Anecdotal exceptions are a much better guide than scientific research that has been vetted by an extensive peer review.

    You ain't gotta get all up in a huff ......its just deer...opinions differ no big deal

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    Hoji

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    No, I am a convert. Your " A guy I know in Louisiana , and some guys on an internet hunting forum" data is obviously superior to the years of research conducted by TPWD and others. In fact, tomorrow I will be at a function with a lot of my former coworkers and I will let them know that they did not need to spend years and years going to school, writing thesis' and doing years of field research, they could have just " asked a guy" or " talked to some other guys on a hunting forum"
     

    JSF

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    Lufkin
    No, I am a convert. Your " A guy I know in Louisiana , and some guys on an internet hunting forum" data is obviously superior to the years of research conducted by TPWD and others. In fact, tomorrow I will be at a function with a lot of my former coworkers and I will let them know that they did not need to spend years and years going to school, writing thesis' and doing years of field research, they could have just " asked a guy" or " talked to some other guys on a hunting forum"

    Wow you really got your feelings hurt......yeah I guess I do trust the guys I know that raise deer over "the guys you know" that studied them.......if they think a yearling 8 point can never be a 10 or bigger then they obviously need more schooling.

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    Younggun

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    Since when did antlers become so important to a "healthy herd". And why are 8 points trash?


    Seems like "healthy" and "trophy" are becoming interchangeable. To me healthy is just healthy. Free of disease, able to avoid predators, an reproduce. I don't see a 9 point as unhealthy.
     

    Hoji

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    Never said 8 points are trash. Said they were culls if you are trying to manage herds for maximum antler growth. If you have a 2.5 year old 10 and a 4.5 year old 8 in the same territory and you are looking to get the best antler growth on your property, you shoot the 8 point so he is no longer competing with the younger 10.
     

    Younggun

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    Never saw the reference that your management practices were specifically for antler growth and got the impression you felt only trophy antlers=good deer.

    Sorry for the misinterpretation, never been much on trophy hunting. Antlers are just to tough no matter how long you boil them.
     

    bodhi

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    A trophy is a buck over 200 pounds dressed weight. Man I'm going to have to get used to these tiny TX deer. =)
     

    bodhi

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    I was just pokin' a little fun. =)

    I just moved to TX from VA. Haven't even found a lease yet.
     
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