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Opinions on 20 gauge HD ammo

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  • Texas42

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    I'm setting up my fiancee with a 20 gauge shotgun to use for HD (it is what I got).

    Any opinions about HD ammo. I'd rather not use slugs. I founds some number 3 buckshot at Academy, couldn't find anything higher. It says unplated, whatever that means.
    Target Sports
     

    Jeff-Tex

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    Sounds like you found a 2 3/4 shell. There is more variety in the 3 inch shells. If they don't stock them, look online. CTD has plenty if you can handle the prices, and they ship pretty fast.
     

    micah7488

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    my friend loaded some shotgun ammo of his own using 3/4" metal ball bearings. he lived to tell the tale and said that they busted straight through a tree. Granted it was a 12 guage but i figure same concept could be used for 20, is the shotgun capable of taking both 2 3/4 and 3 inch shells? If your fiancee can handle blowing out a 8 inch hole in her house while taking the bad guy out, you could test that idea, carefully.

    Side-note: overall what is the difference between a sabot round and a slug or is it solely a nominal thing?
     

    Big country

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    #3 or 000 buck? they are both said to be effective on yotes. As far as HD try for a 3" if the gun will handle it. I would go for 000 or 00 and try to keep it low recoil so the pattern is tighter and the kick is less.
     

    Texas42

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    My gun is a winchester 1300. The barrel says I can use 3" shells. The ones i got were #3 buckshot, not 000 buck in 2 3/4ths in shell (20 pellets). It was what they had at Academy. I checked bass pro shop, and all I saw was some sabot rounds for 20 gauge. There is just not a lot of options for 20 gauge . . . . .

    I guess I could look online, but I'd rather not pay too much.
     

    Texas42

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    I have been looking at Midway and CTD, and #3 buckshot is about all I have seen.

    Really not much in the way of 3" shells either.
     

    Big country

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    Sabots are for rifled barrels only. Only rifled slugs threw the smooth bore. And for now #3 is better than bird shot. I had some #3 3" mag turkey loads for the 870 but they didn't last long, (I discovered that blowing shit up with magnum loads is fun) Now it is 00 and rifled slugs on the butt with an empty tube. (I have my pistol next to the bed)
     

    micah7488

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    Sabots are for rifled barrels only. Only rifled slugs threw the smooth bore. And for now #3 is better than bird shot. I had some #3 3" mag turkey loads for the 870 but they didn't last long, (I discovered that blowing shit up with magnum loads is fun) Now it is 00 and rifled slugs on the butt with an empty tube. (I have my pistol next to the bed)

    is it the 'judge' with your .410 in the chamber? :)

    graci for the 411
     

    micah7488

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    My gun is a winchester 1300. The barrel says I can use 3" shells. The ones i got were #3 buckshot, not 000 buck in 2 3/4ths in shell (20 pellets). It was what they had at Academy. I checked bass pro shop, and all I saw was some sabot rounds for 20 gauge. There is just not a lot of options for 20 gauge . . . . .

    I guess I could look online, but I'd rather not pay too much.

    i found a website that sells mil-spec smoke nades. if in doubt smoke em and shoot till your outta ammo, granted the smokes $39 per nade
     

    cpf3

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    Saw a demo on one of the Wednesday night TV shooting shows last night where the moderator shot through several "walls" with a variety of weapons. The 12 ga., using birdshot was the only one that did not penatrate 6-8 layers of sheetrock ("walls"). Distance was ~ 10' and the birdshot (and wad) stayed within the first "wall". Recognizing that overpenatration can be a bad thing (for the neighbors), I personally prefer the larger birdshot load for home defense. Larger being: #4's or #2's. At house room ranges (>20') the pattern spread will be less than 3" and should not hit someone in the next room or house across the street.
     

    texas_teacher

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    Saw a demo on one of the Wednesday night TV shooting shows last night where the moderator shot through several "walls" with a variety of weapons. The 12 ga., using birdshot was the only one that did not penatrate 6-8 layers of sheetrock ("walls"). Distance was ~ 10' and the birdshot (and wad) stayed within the first "wall". Recognizing that overpenatration can be a bad thing (for the neighbors), I personally prefer the larger birdshot load for home defense. Larger being: #4's or #2's. At house room ranges (>20') the pattern spread will be less than 3" and should not hit someone in the next room or house across the street.

    interesting... what show was this on?
     

    M. Sage

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    I had the opportunity to shoot a Michigan white tail with a 20 gauge at close range once. It put that deer down.

    #3 in a 2 3/4 is enough for home defense.

    Saw a demo on one of the Wednesday night TV shooting shows last night where the moderator shot through several "walls" with a variety of weapons. The 12 ga., using birdshot was the only one that did not penatrate 6-8 layers of sheetrock ("walls"). Distance was ~ 10' and the birdshot (and wad) stayed within the first "wall". Recognizing that overpenatration can be a bad thing (for the neighbors), I personally prefer the larger birdshot load for home defense. Larger being: #4's or #2's. At house room ranges (>20') the pattern spread will be less than 3" and should not hit someone in the next room or house across the street.

    Cool... but did they show you the wound ballistics of that bird shot? Bird shot under penetrates. It will not create a deep enough wound to reliably stop an attacker. Even #4 buckshot is on the line as far as being enough for defense - it's considered the minimum defensive shotgun load.

    Any ammunition that will reliably cause wounds sufficient to stop an attacker will penetrate multiple walls, no matter what kind of firearm you have. That's the reality of it.

    Hell, I can put my fist through drywall. It's just not a sufficient barrier for anything but air and fire (for a limited time). Are you going to say that you'll bet your life on a load that won't go through something I can put my fist through? Because I'll call you crazy if you will.

    What TV show was this? Advocating the use of birdshot as a home defense load is irresponsible or ignorant.

    Unfortunately tacticalworks.ca has gone the way of the dodo. They had an excellent write up on this along with ballistic gelatin testing. The result was that anything less than #4 buck was unlikely to penetrate deep enough to cause wounds significant enough to end a fight.

    In short: Ain't no such thing as over penetration.
     

    SIG_Fiend

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    Simply put, birdshot = bullsh*t

    Seriously, if buckshot is good enough for a "deer", than it's better suited to a human than lighter loads like bird shot. The reason being with lighter loads you are going to get under-penetration. According to FBI standard tests, you need at least a good 12" to RELIABLY use a load for self defense. Many birdshot and lighter loads produce sub-standard penetration along the lines of only ~4-9" roughly. The Taurus Judge suffers from this as well when using .410 as many shotgun loads have slower burning powder that doesn't fully burn from a short barrel like the judge so you get low penetration. By reliably, what this means is to account for most situations. Self defense encounters are incredibly dynamic situations. The perfect, square on, center of mass shot is not likely to happen. When you start introducing variables such as the attacker turned at a 45 degree angle from you, possibly with his arms or other objects blocking a straight shot to the COM, you need more penetration to be able to reliably pass through most of those objects and still penetrate deep enough to hit vital organs. The only things that stop an attacker are:

    -Blood loss leading to unconsciousness (much too slow)
    -Vital organ damage (physically disabling arms, legs, internal organs, etc)
    -Central nervous system or upper spinal cord shot
    -Psychological ("hey I just got shot, I give up and am falling down now")

    A determined attacker can fight through even the most unbelievable physical damage. In fact there are LE cases out there of some attackers actually continuing to fight even after their heart has been completely destroyed and nearly blown out of their chest. This is why you need deep penetration. Birdshot will still hurt like a MF'er, but all it takes is that one time you just happen to be attacked by a guy hopped up on PCP that doesn't feel it and doesn't care and then you're screwed.

    Over-penetration is always a concern, but stopping the attacker immediately is much more of a concern. Learn to use the sights, don't fall for the point shooting BS (it has it's place but use the sights where possible), make your hits count, don't fire wildly and make sure not to miss. Sounds like I'm oversimplifying it but, it's all in the training.
     
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