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Opposite of concealed carry

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  • leVieux

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    I open carried around town this week for the first time. Springfield Champion in a matte black 1791 paddle holster. In the past I've open carried to/from the range and maybe the errant gas station in between - but never actively had my side arm, in town, on my hip, for all the world to see.

    Frankly, I didn't care for it. I tried to act as normal but found myself almost paranoid and certainly self-conscious. I went to three or four businesses and found myself searching the front of the building looking for the magic no open carry sign. I never seem to see those no concealed signs. I'm sure they're there, but I've never seen one.

    So unless I'm at a gun event, I'm thinking concealed carry is for me. Do any of y'all open carry comfortably?

    Err, your media-induced 2A guilt is showing. I grew-up in an always O C LEGAL state and found it a natural thing.

    Please don’t get folks started on the ADVISABILITY of OC, which is an entirely different matter.

    Also, despite many commenters; the two, CC & O C, are NOT mutually exclusive.

    If you see me open-carrying, be assured that there are one or more which remain concealed.

    leVieux.
    Hurley's Gold
     

    satx78247

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    Am I to take that as you would have stopped honest law abiding people to ID them. We have another LEO on site that said not legal.

    rotor,

    And that "another LEO", who is UNKNOWN to me, actually KNOWS the answer?? - I remain UNCONVINCED.

    yours, satx
     

    satx78247

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    Sounds like my next trip to San Antonio will be fun. Where do you suggest one is most likely to be stopped and asked there in San Antonio?

    Rhino,

    ANYWHERE in Bexar County, IF you are OPENLY carrying a firearm.

    yours, satx
     

    billtool

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    Err, your media-induced 2A guilt is showing. I grew-up in an always O C LEGAL state and found it a natural thing.

    Please don’t get folks started on the ADVISABILITY of OC, which is an entirely different matter.

    Also, despite many commenters; the two, CC & O C, are NOT mutually exclusive.

    If you see me open-carrying, be assured that there are one or more which remain concealed.

    leVieux.
    Wrong on the media 2A guilt. I have an opinion and asked a simple question. Too, you have no bloody idea where I grew up or what I was or wasn’t exposed to from an open carry perspective growing up.

    Seems to me your assumptions are akin to media bias broad brush painting. You should probably check that.
     

    Axxe55

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    I'll just leave this here for light reading. Regarding whether an officer can solely check a person's permit based upon just the carrying of a firearm being the reason to stop that person.

    United States Supreme Court, federal and state court cases where precedents have already been ruled upon.

    Grounds for detention[edit]
    Several courts have ruled that the mere carriage of a firearm, where it is allowable by law, is not reasonable suspicion to detain someone, however, some courts have ruled that simply being armed is grounds for seizure.

    United States Supreme Court[edit]
    In Terry v. Ohio (1968), the Supreme Court ruled that police may stop a person only if they have a reasonable suspicion that the person has committed or is about to commit a crime, and may frisk the suspect for weapons if they have reasonable suspicion that the suspect is armed and dangerous. In an analog case, the Supreme Court ruled in Delaware v. Prouse (1979) that stopping automobiles for no reason other than to check the driver's license and registration violates the Fourth Amendment. In the case Florida v. J. L. (2000), the court ruled that a police officer may not legally stop and frisk anyone based solely on an anonymous tip that simply described that person's location and appearance without information as to any illegal conduct that the person might be planning.

    Other federal courts[edit]
    Unless otherwise stated, the following courts ruled that carrying a firearm is not reasonable suspicion to detain someone or being armed is not a justifiable reason to frisk someone:

    The Third Circuit issued its ruling in United States v. Ubiles (2000),[62] United States v. Navedo (2012),[63] and United States v. Lewis (2012).[64]

    The Fourth Circuit issued its ruling in United States v. Black (2013),[65] however the decision United States v. Robinson (2017) found that a suspect stopped for a lawful reason can be frisked if the officer reasonably suspects them to be armed regardless of whether in legal possession or not.[66]

    The Sixth Circuit issued its ruling in Northrup v. City of Toledo Police Department (2015).[67]

    The Seventh Circuit issued its ruling in United States v. Leo (2015).[68]

    The Ninth Circuit issued its ruling in United States v. Brown (2019),[69] however the decision United States v. Orman (2007) held that a police officer seizing a firearm for safety did not violate the Fourth Amendment.[70]

    The Tenth Circuit issued its ruling in United States v. King (1993)[71] and United States v. Roch (1993),[72] however the decision United States v. Rodriguez (2013) found that the presence of a handgun in a waistband is grounds for reasonable suspicion of unlawfully carrying a deadly weapon thus justifying a stop and frisk.[73]

    The District Court of New Mexico issued its ruling in St. John v. McColley (2009).[74][75]

    State courts[edit]
    Unless otherwise stated, the following courts ruled that carrying a firearm is not reasonable suspicion to detain someone or being armed is not a justifiable reason to frisk someone:

    The Arizona Supreme Court issued its ruling in State v. Serna (2014).[76]

    The Florida Fourth District Court of Appeal issued its ruling in Regalado v. State (2009).[77]

    The Idaho Supreme Court issued its ruling in State v. Bishop (2009).[78]

    The Illinois Supreme Court issued its ruling in People v. Granados (2002)[79] however the decision People v. Colyar (2013) found that the presence of a bullet justified officers searching for weapons for officer safety.[80]

    The Indiana Supreme Court issued its ruling in Pinner v. Indiana (2017).[81][82]

    The Kentucky Court of Appeals issued its ruling in Pulley v. Commonwealth (2016).[83]

    The New Jersey Superior Court, Appellate Division issued its ruling in State v. Goree (2000).[84]

    The New Mexico Supreme Court issued its ruling in State v. Vandenberg and Swanson (2003) holding that frisking for weapons was reasonable.[85]

    The Pennsylvania Supreme Court issued its ruling in Commonwealth v. Hawkins (1997)[86] and Commonwealth v. Hicks (2019).[87]

    The Tennessee Supreme Court issued its ruling in State v. Williamson (2012).[88]
     

    rotor

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    rotor,

    And that "another LEO", who is UNKNOWN to me, actually KNOWS the answer?? - I remain UNCONVINCED.

    yours, satx
    I find it shocking that you claim San Antonio police have been given the directive to defy the 4th amendment and unlawfully stop law abiding citizens without reasonable suspicion. In your case you voluntarily gave up your rights but if this is a department policy to break the law don't you as an honorable law abiding citizen think it should be investigated? Is this a directive of Acevedo when he was chief?
    The other LEO I referred to was Cycleguy2300. He seems to understand the legality of a legal stop in post #26.
     

    satx78247

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    To All,

    If simply asking to see your CCH license is impermissible, LEOs cannot lawfully ask to SEE your driver's license IF you are driving a VEHICLE and/or that prohibition would also mean that DWI/DUI check-points would also be unlawful..

    Since numerous courts of competent jurisdiction in Texas & elsewhere have held that "DL checks" are LAWFUL & DWI-checkpoints are also lawful, it seems OBVIOUS that ABSENT A CLEAR & COMPELLING RULING by (for example) the TEXAS SUPREME COURT, that simply checking to see if a person, who is carrying a firearm, is licensed is also lawful.

    Btw, I've been "caught" over the years several times (MOSTLY when I was stationed & lived in VA, WV & MD) at Driver's license & DWI/DUI checkpoints.
    As all 3 states require CARRY LICENSED persons to SHOW THEIR PERMIT WITH their DL, anytime that a LEO checks your DL/registration, I always hold BOTH permits out in the same hand..
    IN EVERY CASE, when I showed my Carry License & my Driver's License to the peace officer, I was IMMEDIATELY "waved through" the checkpoint & NOT further delayed.

    NOTE: Despite my "lead feet" & being stopped by city/county/state police for speeding, I have NOT YET BEEN TICKETED for speeding or any other violation.

    OBVIOUSLY, TX license plates are "linked to" the list of CCW licenses because last February I was stopped at just about "oh dark thirty" by a DPS female trooper.
    The officer walked up to my car & informed me that I had a tail-light that was "non-functional" & told me to go get it fixed, ASAP & "sent me on my way", after asking what I was carrying.
    (She had NOT asked to see my DL/CCW, so firearms licenses MUST be in her computer.)

    Personal Comment: That YL "fills out a DPS uniform" as I have seen NO other peace officer do in my life. = SHE IS GLAMOUROUS from long RED hair to booted toe & could be a "cover model", if she chose that career.

    yours, satx
    I find it shocking that you claim San Antonio police have been given the directive to defy the 4th amendment and unlawfully stop law abiding citizens without reasonable suspicion. In your case you voluntarily gave up your rights but if this is a department policy to break the law don't you as an honorable law abiding citizen think it should be investigated? Is this a directive of Acevedo when he was chief?
    The other LEO I referred to was Cycleguy2300. He seems to understand the legality of a legal stop in post #26.


    rotor,

    Inasmuch as our "cycleguy:" is NOT (at least as far as I know) a judge of NO competent jurisdiction, his OPINION, while different than mine, is NO more persuasive & NEITHER of our OPINIONS have any "force of law"..

    ImVho, giving advice (OR taking legal advice from) on what is lawful/unlawful, unless you are a competent attorney, who has an accepted precedent to quote AND/OR is a JUDGE, who has made a judicial ruling, is a GREAT WAY to find yourself "having an extended stay in a room for which you have no suitable key".

    yours, satx
     

    rotor

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    satx78247, it's your claim that SA law enforcement has a standing order to stop every open carry person and I asked you to back that up and you didn't. I don't blame you for not wanting to put your butt in a sling. What you claim though sure puts a bad light on law enforcement and I hope that what you said is no longer a true statement, perhaps something in the past. Have a blessed day.
     

    Haystack

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    All this talk about whether or not an LEO can ask to see you license sounds like an old fashioned pissing contest. I will gladly show my LTC to any LEO that asks to see it! And I have! The DPS gave us that privilege and they immediately become more comfortable when they see it. And don't rag on me about the 2nd Amendment is all the license you need. However true that may be, it won't keep you out of court. At least not today.

    If we are ever to be granted our FULL 2A rights, we have to show that we are law abiding citizens not to be thrown into the same bag as criminals. JMHO
     

    satx78247

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    satx78247, it's your claim that SA law enforcement has a standing order to stop every open carry person and I asked you to back that up and you didn't. I don't blame you for not wanting to put your butt in a sling. What you claim though sure puts a bad light on law enforcement and I hope that what you said is no longer a true statement, perhaps something in the past. Have a blessed day.


    rotor,

    You are welcome to hold THAT OPINION or ANY OTHER OPINION, as that is certainly a FREEDOM OF SPEECH/THOUGHT/EXPRESSION and FIRST AMENDMENT issue.

    Nonetheless, your OPINION is NO BETTER/WORSE and/or "more likely to be valid" than ANY other random person's personal opinion.

    yours, satx
     

    rotor

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    All this talk about whether or not an LEO can ask to see you license sounds like an old fashioned pissing contest. I will gladly show my LTC to any LEO that asks to see it! And I have! The DPS gave us that privilege and they immediately become more comfortable when they see it. And don't rag on me about the 2nd Amendment is all the license you need. However true that may be, it won't keep you out of court. At least not today.

    If we are ever to be granted our FULL 2A rights, we have to show that we are law abiding citizens not to be thrown into the same bag as criminals. JMHO
    You have the right to give up your constitutional rights if you want to. I respect law enforcement and not since I was a kid with illegal fireworks that the local cop searched me for and took have I had a problem with law enforcement. Cops younger brother was selling my fireworks the next day.
     

    satx78247

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    To All,

    Truthfully, while I'm a supporter of the BoR & the 2nd Amendment, I'm NOT at all SURE that I want EVERYONE (including VIOLENT MENTAL SUBJECTS & ILLEGAL ALIENS) to be allowed to carry/wear firearms, as there are a GREAT MANY VICIOUS PREDATORS in society that i do NOT want to be wearing/carrying (which is what "bearing arms" under the BoR means) deadly weapons of any sort whatever.

    yours, satx
     

    TexasRedneck

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    To All,

    Truthfully, while I'm a supporter of the BoR & the 2nd Amendment, I'm NOT at all SURE that I want EVERYONE (including VIOLENT MENTAL SUBJECTS & ILLEGAL ALIENS) to be allowed to carry/wear firearms, as there are a GREAT MANY VICIOUS PREDATORS in society that i do NOT want to be wearing/carrying (which is what "bearing arms" under the BoR means) deadly weapons of any sort whatever.

    yours, satx

    News flash, my friend - the criminals already carry at will - and always have. They don't give two shits what you or I want.
     

    satx78247

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    News flash, my friend - the criminals already carry at will - and always have. They don't give two shits what you or I want.

    TexasRedneck,

    NEWS FLASH: IF/WHEN everyone can LAWFULLY bear arms, that includes EVERYONE & we LEOs will NOT be able disarm the PREDATORS, UNTIL AFTER they commit a VIOLENT CRIME (IF THEN).
    FYI, I've disarmed any number of VIOLENT LUNATICS & persons who had outstanding warrants or "peace bonds" against them, who openly said that they planned to hurt/kill another person.

    ADDENDA: When I was a deputy Sheriff in NOLA, I often took persons, who were adjudged as "PUBLIC LUNATICS, who are a DANGER to their own person or to others" to St Francisville, which is the home of the LA Hospital for the Criminally Insane.

    ONE "crazy" that I well remember ALL TOO WELL, threatened to come after me when, "I get out".
    (Roger B. R_________ had only attacked about a dozen people, killing 2 of the victims. = He was found "NOT RESPONSIBLE by reason of insanity" under The Public Lunatic Act of 1893..)

    Less than a year later, he was released by the court & DID come after me with a semi-auto .22 rifle.
    (He was apprehended by JPSD deputies about 5 miles from my house, was taken in front of a judge & returned to St. Francisville. - Less than 2 years later, he was released again & this time he killed his 26YO step-mother.)

    yours, satx
     
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