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pc memory & hard drive performance question

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  • kingofwylietx

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    I was thinking of ordering a self-spec'd pc online (I have not decided on vendor yet). While doing a little research, I came up with the following questions.

    1. does memory latency really effect performance to a significant degree, for example, 2.5ms CAS latency vs. 8ms......obvious difference, but will it be something noticeable if I'm playing a game, loading a program, or checking out Texas Gun Talk?

    2. hard drive: I was thinking of RAID 0, is that noticeably faster than a single drive or RAID 1? Are the solid state hard drives faster? Or, are they just quieter and more energy efficient?

    3. Do you think i7 processors are really much faster than a good Core 2 for general use?

    4. Where do you go to get higher performance computers built for you? Any good website recommendations, like Alienware or something similar (well-known company that stands behind their product)?

    5. I originally planned to spend about $700, but now I'm looking at about $1600 with no monitor. Am I over-thinking this? I no longer have much time to play games, so it's mostly Peggle off Zone.com or some other embarrassing game. The last real game I played was Return to Castle Wolffenstien (sp?).

    I have done just enough research to make myself think that I should spend a fair amount more than originally anticipated. I should note that I will be stepping up from an Intel P4 3ghz processor w/1gb of RAM. I am sure that anything I buy will seem faster......

    I await the hardware guru's to point the way..........
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    SIG_Fiend

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    Honestly, I would take a step back and decide what you really want, and if what you're planning on building will even be used anywhere near it's potential. What I mean by that is, it's kind of a waste to spend thousands on a computer and then only play a game like once a month. ;) Honestly, I would personally stay away from places like Alienware or any of the other well known "big" names in custom computers. While Alienware as well as plenty of others build great stuff, they make you seriously pay for it. Pay for it as in you probably won't get out for under $3k pay for it. ;) lol

    As for a RAID setup, I would advise against it. That is more beneficial for stuff like servers, data storage, etc. I would say the average computer user doesn't need it, and it's just added expense.

    Kingofwylietx, are you very experienced at building pc's? Reason I ask is, if you are or at least pretty confident in your abilities, I can help you spec something out. The way I usually do it is determine what I want then go browse ebay, and PRICEWATCH, and maybe a few random Google finds, find the best prices, then order. ;)

    What I would recommend is finding a reputable ebay seller and find a prebuilt computer that is close to what you are looking for. Honestly, prebuilt computers have gotten cheap enough online that much of the time you won't even save that much sourcing the parts yourself. If you give me some ideas on what kind of stuff you want (hard drive size, monitor?, video card, audio card, etc) I'll go find you some decent examples of prebuilt setups on ebay. I used to just source all my parts independently. Though after seeing all the deals on prebuilt systems on ebay, next time around i'm just buying one of those and then sourcing my important upgrades (video card, memory, audio card) wherever i can find the best deals.
     

    Texas1911

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    I'd suggest forgoing the "best deals" and just paying the extra $5 / part (if that) at www.newegg.com

    Newegg has ALWAYS shipped fast, and been a painless transaction. Plus you can get everything in a single box, rather than waiting for 20 packages to show up from 20 different vendors.

    You really don't need a fast machine for the things you described. You could put something together for $500 - 600, cheaper if you have a power supply and case. Just spend money where it counts, like RAM.

    I agree with Sig_F, you don't need RAID, or something pre-built for that matter. Computers are not that difficult to build yourself.
     

    kingofwylietx

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    I was looking at something like this to 'future-proof' for the next 6 or 7 years. What do you think? The monitor is included, it added about $350, but I may stick with our Sony 19". I also added the Microsoft office Student for $150. Without those, the pc would actually be about $1200.

    Congratulations! Your system is ready to be built.My Components
    PROCESSORS Intel® Core™i7-920 Processor(8MB L2 Cache, 2.66GHz) edit
    OPERATING SYSTEM Genuine Windows Vista® Home Premium Edition SP1, 64-Bit edit
    WARRANTY AND SERVICE 2Yr Ltd Hardware Warranty, InHome Service after Remote Diagnosis edit
    MEMORY 6GB Tri-Channel DDR3 SDRAM at 1066MHz - 6 DIMMs edit
    HARD DRIVE 1.28 TB Performance RAID 0 (2 x 640GB SATA 3Gb/s 7200 RPM HDDs) edit
    OPTICAL DRIVE Single Drive: 16X CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW) w/double layer write capability edit
    MONITORS Dell 24 inch Consumer™ S2409W Flat Panel, Adjustable Stand edit
    VIDEO CARD ATI Radeon HD 4670 512MB edit
    SOUND CARD Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio edit
    SPEAKERS Dell AX510PA 10 Watt Flat Panel Attached Speaker for Flat Panel Monitors edit
    KEYBOARD Dell USB Consumer Multimedia Keyboard edit
    MOUSE Dell Premium Laser Mouse edit
    FLOPPY & MEDIA READER No Floppy Drive or Media Reader Included edit
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    ANTI-VIRUS & SECURITY McAfee SecurityCenter with anti-virus, anti-spyware, firewall, 24-months edit
    OFFICE SOFTWARE Microsoft® Office Home and Student 2007 edit
    POWER PROTECTION & STORAGE BACKUP Belkin 7-Outlet Small Conceal Surge Protector edit
    My Service
    REMOTE ACCESS Dell Remote Access, free basic service edit
    DATASAFE ONLINE BACKUP Dell Online Backup 2GB for 1 year edit
    ALSO INCLUDED WITH YOUR SYSTEM
    MODEM No Modem Option
    Studio XPS Studio XPS featuring Core i7 processors
    Adobe Software Adobe® Acrobat® Reader 9.0 Multi-Language
    Network Card Integrated 10/1000 Ethernet
    Labels Windows Vista™ Premium



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    Grog

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    I'm a geek by profession and I'll add my .02 to this.

    1.) Computers have viable life of 2 years if you buy a good one. Just my thoughts. I upgrade every 2 years. Three at most. Old computer becomes the kids machine. lol
    2.) Memory latency. Get the best you can. Less latent is better but if you are just web surfing and not playing the high end 1st person shooters, don't worry so much. Most users won't know the difference...
    3.) Having said the above.... Buy name brand stuff. I've built and repaired 1000s of machines in my time. The money you save for cheap gear is offset by the headache of configuration. I stick with the higher end stuff.
    4.) RAID.... What do you want, speed or storage or maximum up time? that determines the RAID or lack thereof. For home use, I go with the fastest rotation single drive with the biggest capacity around and don't bother with the RAID. Not necessary for general home use IMO.
    5.) I am an Intel processor fan. Folks will flame me for this but I have always had weird errors with AMD chipsets. Odd intermittent stuff. I consider them to be 99% compatible.
    6.) Desktops, I build myself. Laptops.... Stay away from IBM. *shudder* but I've had good performance out of my HP. Dells are good and the Alienware (now owned by Dell, IIRC) are pretty good if not very pricey.
    7.) Don't run VISTA with less than 2GB RAM. You won't be happy.

    The rest is up in the air.
     

    Grog

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    The build you have listed looks good and solid to me BTW.... No real worries. I find the price to be a little high, but that is a big monitor.......

    I am more of a fan of Nvidia video chipsets but that is a personal thing.

    Dell is pretty good in my experience with support and service.

    I think your lifespan thoughts may be a bit lofty though. Computers may still work, but they are rendered obsolete by new peripherals and software requirements...

    All said and done it looks like a better than average deal. If you haven't looked yet, I'd recommend peeking into Fry's sometime before buying. Just a thought.
     

    nalioth

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    Most of what you mention is more critical to industrial grade servers than to a personal home-use machine.

    You also state that you'd not be playing games on it, well, games are the primary reason to buy a new (windows) computer every year. If you're not an avid gamer, any low-end box will surf the web and write Word documents for years (until hardware failure).
     

    kingofwylietx

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    All of you have good, solid points. I'm here because I like guns, but I know a little about computers. I am now convinced that I don't need the RAID 0 (you've all said it, so I'm convinced). It sounds like a fast processor, lots of ram, and a big fast hard drive should be my main objective?

    So, maybe I should take a different approach.

    Let's say you wanted to buy/build a new computer, with 64bit Vista, no monitor or Microsoft Office. You want to spend under $1000. You want something that starts up and opens applications quickly, and will be reliable. You'll mostly web-surf and bog it down with a bunch of pictures (my wife loves taking pictures and our video camera is digital, it all ends up on the pc). What would you spec?
     

    carneyman

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    Personally, I would stay away from 64 bit Vista. Every now and then you will run into a program you want, but it won't run on 64bit versions...I found that out with AutoCAD after I built my computer and had windows on it and everything...luckily, being a student, windows cost me $20...so no sweat off my back. But that's just my personal experience.
     

    nalioth

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    All of you have good, solid points. I'm here because I like guns, but I know a little about computers. I am now convinced that I don't need the RAID 0 (you've all said it, so I'm convinced). It sounds like a fast processor, lots of ram, and a big fast hard drive should be my main objective?

    So, maybe I should take a different approach.

    Let's say you wanted to buy/build a new computer, with 64bit Vista, no monitor or Microsoft Office. You want to spend under $1000. You want something that starts up and opens applications quickly, and will be reliable. You'll mostly web-surf and bog it down with a bunch of pictures (my wife loves taking pictures and our video camera is digital, it all ends up on the pc). What would you spec?

    Do you have to have Windows? If you're not playing games, you don't need to limit yourself to Windows.

    Linux comes in many forms (but underneath, it's all basically the same), and is free of charge (you only have to spend time learning the names of the same types of programs you use on Windows [linux has analogues for 99% of them]).

    99% of all the programs for linux are free, too.

    Linux runs way more stable than Windows does. As I write this, the box I'm using has been running constantly for 110 days and some hours (I run Ubuntu linux).
     

    kingofwylietx

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    Do you have to have Windows? If you're not playing games, you don't need to limit yourself to Windows.

    Linux comes in many forms (but underneath, it's all basically the same), and is free of charge (you only have to spend time learning the names of the same types of programs you use on Windows [linux has analogues for 99% of them]).

    I have to get Windows for my wife. The last time I tried something different on the computer, she hated it. I tried to get around buying Office, so I downloaded Open Office..........no go for her. Now, we have an old copy of Office that was on an old pc my company got rid of.....free. I can put it on the next computer and also keep my monitor.
     

    lonewolf23c

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    I'm a geek by profession and I'll add my .02 to this.

    1.) Computers have viable life of 2 years if you buy a good one. Just my thoughts. I upgrade every 2 years. Three at most. Old computer becomes the kids machine. lol
    2.) Memory latency. Get the best you can. Less latent is better but if you are just web surfing and not playing the high end 1st person shooters, don't worry so much. Most users won't know the difference...
    3.) Having said the above.... Buy name brand stuff. I've built and repaired 1000s of machines in my time. The money you save for cheap gear is offset by the headache of configuration. I stick with the higher end stuff.
    4.) RAID.... What do you want, speed or storage or maximum up time? that determines the RAID or lack thereof. For home use, I go with the fastest rotation single drive with the biggest capacity around and don't bother with the RAID. Not necessary for general home use IMO.
    5.) I am an Intel processor fan. Folks will flame me for this but I have always had weird errors with AMD chipsets. Odd intermittent stuff. I consider them to be 99% compatible.
    6.) Desktops, I build myself. Laptops.... Stay away from IBM. *shudder* but I've had good performance out of my HP. Dells are good and the Alienware (now owned by Dell, IIRC) are pretty good if not very pricey.
    7.) Don't run VISTA with less than 2GB RAM. You won't be happy.

    The rest is up in the air.

    I agree with this post.

    I will add one thing though. A solid state drive has no moving parts, its kind of like a usb memory stick (thumb drive). They are less fragile than a hard drive, however they don't have very big storage capacities yet, I think the largest right now is 64GB.

    I have an Alienware M17, that I ordered a couple months ago, that cost about $1080 for everything that I need in it. Its fast, and has enough hard drive space to keep me busy trying to fill it for a few years.

    I run Windows Vista on my Acer desktop and my Alienware Laptop. My desktop I'm running 5GB of RAM, and my laptop I'm running 4GB of RAM. Both run exceptionally well.

    I have 2 Dell Laptop computers, I use Dell Laptops at work also and they're great machines. I just got the Alienware Laptop because of the military discount I get through AAFES.
     

    SIG_Fiend

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    Honestly, I wouldn't waste the money on MS Office. $150 is a ripoff IMO. Check out Open Office, you get like 99% of the capability (well maybe even 100%) and it's entirely FREE:

    OpenOffice.org - The Free and Open Productivity Suite

    Open Office is all I use anymore. Microsoft's software is just too expensive for what you get. I can stomach paying $150 for an OS, since that's the core of the system, but paying that much for word processing sucks. ;) lol Hope that didn't sound like too much of a spam-fo-mercial. lol ;)

    Here's my personal opinion on processor brand. I have been a lifelong AMD guy. My dad was an engineer with AMD for the last 30 years, so I've grown up around AMD. In fact, for a short few years I interned there. Up until just a couple years ago or so, for the past several years AMD has had some excellent and competitive products that have generally been a bargain compared to their more expensive Intel counterparts. HOWEVER, judging by all of the inside info I have gleaned from current and former AMD employees (my father, former co-workers, etc) as of late, it appears that AMD is going downhill big time. Judging by everything I've heard, I honestly don't know how much longer AMD is going to be around. Since I first interned at AMD, while I was there was right before and during the peak of AMD's fame and the production of some of their most successful products. Since then the company has gone downhill pretty badly. There has been much trouble from the management side. Honestly, I see them either going out of business (not too likely but you never know), or more likely getting bought out by some large corporation, conglomerate, or investment fund, and then likely being downsized in scale to the point where the company is little more than a shadow of it's former self. I've been a lifelong AMD guy. As much as I hate to say it, I am finally jumping on the Intel bandwagon with my next build. I just don't see AMD being able to compete with Intel any longer, bar any miraculous break throughs made on their part.
     

    nalioth

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    I can stomach paying $150 for an OS, since that's the core of the system, <snip>
    . . if a person doesn't play games (primary reason for a Windows box), then linux cost $0 and is a better operating system.

    %99.99999 virus proof
    %99.99999 malware proof
    %99x uptime (see my post above - I'm at 111 days uptime as I write this)

    Using linux means you get more time to actually use the computer, and more power from the system, because you're not spending a lot of time running antivirus and anti-malware software which also add to the system load.

    Most people remember the "good ol' days" where you had a black text screen and a command prompt as "linux".

    Those days are over. Dell, Acer, HP/Compaq, Toshiba, IBM/Lenovo, and other top tier computer makers have all started offering linux as an option on their machines.
     

    SIG_Fiend

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    . . if a person doesn't play games (primary reason for a Windows box), then linux cost $0 and is a better operating system.

    %99.99999 virus proof
    %99.99999 malware proof
    %99x uptime (see my post above - I'm at 111 days uptime as I write this)

    Using linux means you get more time to actually use the computer, and more power from the system, because you're not spending a lot of time running antivirus and anti-malware software which also add to the system load.

    Most people remember the "good ol' days" where you had a black text screen and a command prompt as "linux".

    Those days are over. Dell, Acer, HP/Compaq, Toshiba, IBM/Lenovo, and other top tier computer makers have all started offering linux as an option on their machines.

    You know, I've used Linux in the past, though I've never liked it since most of what I do is play games. As much as I'm browsing the internet though, I think I may have to build a separate system for games and have a dedicated system for internet usage. I think I may have to actually look into Linux for the internet machine. ;) Being a gamer, I never thought I would say that. lol Just curious Nalioth but, what has been your personal experience with Linux. I'm asking mainly from the perspective of security, spyware, etc. I don't remember ever hearing about it being that secure, but if it is that is definitely an attractive characteristic. In confess I don't know all that much about Linux since I never got into it during my gaming days. Time for me to do some research.
     

    Texas1911

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    I don't think you guys saw the point where he mentioned his wife doesn't want to change to Linux or go with Open Office. Ergo, Linux and Open Office are not viable solutions.

    I think you got it on the head when you said fast RAM, good storage / fast datarate HD, and a good processor. I would recommend an Intel processor, 2Mb 1k+mhz RAM, and a simple 1Tb SATA WD HD. I've been a fan of AMD, and it's what I run, but lately AMD has fallen off the map. I also suggest Nvidia graphics processing (or card) due to the large coding hedge towards Nvidia chipsets in most products.
     

    nalioth

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    Just curious Nalioth but, what has been your personal experience with Linux. I'm asking mainly from the perspective of security, spyware, etc. I don't remember ever hearing about it being that secure, but if it is that is definitely an attractive characteristic.

    Well, no operating system is 100% secure.

    You have two attack vectors with any operating system:

    1) Software faults. All those exploitable parts of the software that allows folks to run attacks via email, web sites or actual contact with the individual ports on the machine. How the software operates also can provide a vector.

    * Windows is notorious for having a large number of open ports for an attacker to choose from, and system processes that'll "open the door" for any reason.

    + Linux only has ports open that are actually being used by programs.

    On every OS, there is a permissions system. This has to do with who can access what files, etc.

    * Windows by default gives the first user full and total access to the whole system. What this means is that a malignant program that gets into the system can rewrite, download, or even delete anything it wants.

    + Linux uses a "user based" permission system by default. The individual user "Bob" doesn't 'own' any programs or system files, and so can't delete, overwrite or otherwise change them. "Bob" does have the option of signing in as superuser to take care of system maintenance, but this is not the state the computer should stay in. If "Bob's" kid is signed in on his own account, he could wipe his account out, and the system would still be running just fine. "Bob" would just have to sign back in as the superuser and create a new account for his youngun. "Bob", "Mom" and "Sister's" accounts would be unaffected as well.

    Microsoft wants you to think Windows has the above style of permissions (when you create your own user account), but it doesn't

    * Windows was originally written for a completely different processor than the x86 type. Since it ran on the 80286 reasonably well, they ran with it. This has been the cause of lots of BSODs over the years.

    + The linux kernel was written to take advantage of every feature of the x86 processor. It runs more smoothly and uses less processor for doing the same operations.

    I could go on for a while comparing the two, but the bottom line is: with linux, you get more out of your system, because it's not having to run an antivirus or anti-malware program (reduced system load). You get more time to actually 'get stuff done', since you're not having to keep the above programs up to date.

    2) Social engineering.
    The most hardened operating system is at risk if proper procedures are ignored. "Bob's" kid (above) was using his account downloading malware (thought it was mp3s or something) and got his account wiped. The rest of the family was not bothered by Junior's screwup.

    OS X has no known software attacks, but recently there have been some "social engineering" attacks.
    pR0rn-o-holics find a "download this free full length pR0n movie". They do so, but when they go to play it, a box pops up asking them to give up their superuser password so "software can be installed to play the pr0no movie".
    User gives up the superuser password, and get PWNT.

    I don't know of any social engineering attacks aimed at Windows, since it's so susceptible to other types of attack that are easier for and present less risk to the attacker.

    My personal feelings? It makes me sad and angry to see folks on the forums disappear for a week (or more) and come back with a new Windows install because their original was eaten by malware.

    The vast majority of folks reading this don't play games on their computer, and could use the stability and peace of mind linux (or OS X) would bring them (not to mention the cost savings, alone).
     

    kingofwylietx

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    I don't think you guys saw the point where he mentioned his wife doesn't want to change to Linux or go with Open Office. Ergo, Linux and Open Office are not viable solutions.

    I think you got it on the head when you said fast RAM, good storage / fast datarate HD, and a good processor. I would recommend an Intel processor, 2Mb 1k+mhz RAM, and a simple 1Tb SATA WD HD. I've been a fan of AMD, and it's what I run, but lately AMD has fallen off the map. I also suggest Nvidia graphics processing (or card) due to the large coding hedge towards Nvidia chipsets in most products.

    Thank you everyone, I'll go with the fast processor & memory (lots of it, too), fast fat HD and Nvidia graphics card.

    This project just got put on hold because I am buying someones toyhauler. It'll be a couple of months before I do the computer, but now I know what to buy.
     
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