Permitless carry ethics poll

[Grey Pilgrim]

First post on TGT. Thanks to everyone that has provided great info on politics and legal issues related to carrying and CC in particular this year.

There are a lot of discussions here about legal issues and parsing the new wording of the laws. It's unfortunate we all have to become legal scholars to figure out whether we're going to be breaking the law or not, which is a shame. I've read TPC chapters 30 and 46 many times, and some self-defense/castle doctrine related sections in chapter 9 a time or two, but I've never felt the need to read the other 99% of the penal code because I'm not a criminal.

But my question is about the ethical side of it, and how you would proceed if you knew a business did not want guns inside but didn't meet the legal requirements (and therefore it's not criminal trespass). I see comments ranging from "if they don't want me and my guns, I'll just go elsewhere" to "screw em, I'll just carry anyway."

So here's the scenario: You're CCing concealed, no LTC. You are about to go into a store that has a gunbuster sign, which you notice before entering the store. You believe the sign does not meet the requirements of TPC 30.05 to forbid entry with a firearm, but (despite compelling arguments those signs are legally ambiguous--we all know what they mean) you understand that the property owner does not want guns in his store. How do you respond, or what do you think is the right response?

 

[Aus_Schwaben]

First post on TGT. Thanks to everyone that has provided great info on politics and legal issues related to carrying and CC in particular this year.

There are a lot of discussions here about legal issues and parsing the new wording of the laws. It's unfortunate we all have to become legal scholars to figure out whether we're going to be breaking the law or not, which is a shame. I've read TPC chapters 30 and 46 many times, and some self-defense/castle doctrine related sections in chapter 9 a time or two, but I've never felt the need to read the other 99% of the penal code because I'm not a criminal.

But my question is about the ethical side of it, and how you would proceed if you knew a business did not want guns inside but didn't meet the legal requirements (and therefore it's not criminal trespass). I see comments ranging from "if they don't want me and my guns, I'll just go elsewhere" to "screw em, I'll just carry anyway."

So here's the scenario: You're CCing concealed, no LTC. You are about to go into a store that has a gunbuster sign, which you notice before entering the store. You believe the sign does not meet the requirements of TPC 30.05 to forbid entry with a firearm, but (despite compelling arguments those signs are legally ambiguous--we all know what they mean) you understand that the property owner does not want guns in his store. How do you respond, or what do you think is the right response?

I shop somewhere else. I know a LTC instructor that carried cards that said something along the lines of "I am a law abiding citizen. While I respect your right to ban firearms, I see it as short sighted so I will not shop here and I will advise others to do the same." It had his name and number. Once in a while the owner would contact him and, after a discussion or three, the owner would change the policy.

 

[Axxe55]

First of all, welcome to TGT.

Second, I understand a lot of people are looking at the finer details of the legal statutes. That is fine.

I'm of the philosophy that even if they have a grade school child draw a sign with Crayons stating guns are prohibited, I get the message. I'll spend my money elsewhere. I'm not going to debate their reasons, or the legal statues of whether their sign carries the weight of law. I believe in the power of my wallet to cast the deciding vote.

 

[toddnjoyce]

…the property owner does not want guns in his store. How do you respond, or what do you think is the right response?

Howdy and welcome.

Ethically, the property owner can follow the law, just like I do. A circle-slash pictogram does not meet the intent of 30.05. So, what would I do…ignore it; I’m concealed and I’m LTC, so it has no standing. Also, I’m not going to store a firearm in my vehicle to do my business. That’s one of, if not the leading contributor to stolen firearms.

Posted with all three signs? Me and my money go elsewhere. Not my job to educate or convince someone how to run their business.

I’ll just say I’ve inadvertently carried in valid 51% places, .06/.07 places, 46.03 prohibited places, AND a federally prohibited places before. I’ve yet to have an LE interaction out of all those opportunities, much less an interaction with a business owner.

 

[Sam Colt]

Can't wait to see some of these responses in the Houstonian.

 

[A1Oni]

 

[ZX9RCAM]

Welcome to the Forum!

 

[GeorgeS]

I won't answer your poll as I suspect you're prospecting for an anti-cc outfit or the biased media.

I won't patronize any business with such signs whether I carry or not, but I WILL inform them that they've lost my business until their signs come down.

 

[ScottDLS]

I sense a troll-tastic poll. The wording of the questions is biased as are most "push polls". There is an implication that a business, normally open to the public, has some kind of moral authority to determine people's unobservable behavior that has no effect on the business nor others. There is also the implication that most businesses are sole proprietorships like Paw Walton's lumber mill, where the "owner" of the land and the business controls every aspect of what occurs. So let me tell you as a (part) owner of ExxonMobil, Walmart, Albertsons and 497 other public business (through my ETF's), I want everyone to carry in those businesses regardless of signs to the contrary. So now you know how (one of) the owner feels, so carry away. Chase Bank doesn't want the money of FFL's that sell modern sporting rifles and magazines with capacities over 10 rounds. I don't care. If an FFL could open an account with them without them knowing, good. A circle slash gun sign, is legally meaningless, and no I don't "know" nor care what the owner(s) intent is. I am one of the owners of many of these businesses as I stated above. If a business wants the state's help in enforcing a policy preference then they better damn well figure out how to properly post. And if I feel like it, I'll still ignore it. What are the going to do about it?

Go home trolls.

 

[Kar98]

 

[TipBledsoe]

That's a really phucked up first post. I think you're a scammer/impostor/incognito liberal so I'll just plead the 5th amendment against it.

 

[Surplus Guy]

That's what I do with my wife. She gets pissed

 

[toddnjoyce]

Where I lose track with all these arguments about invalid signs is why the fûck am I supposed to be the gôddamned mind reader here. Proprietors are given plenty of guidance within the codes.

If they can’t follow that shît, why should I think they’re fûcking bright enough to comply with the rest of the complex regulations they’re responsible for while doing business.

I’ve changed my mind; if you’re too retarded to post a compliant sign, I’m not gonna continue to help you stay in business to feed yourself.

 

[Kar98]

That's what I do with my wife. She gets pissed

Tell her gaslighting isn’t real, it’s something she made up because she’s crazy.

 

[candcallen]

 

[studenygreg]

How about you worry about yourself and what you do and leave everyone else the F alone.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

 

[V-Tach]

What is "The Gun Buster Sign"?

More specific before I can answer....

 

[ScottDLS]

What is "The Gun Buster Sign"?

More specific before I can answer....

A little sticker with a circle and a slash with a silhouette of a Beretta style or revolver style handgun in it.

 

[toddnjoyce]

A little sticker with a circle and a slash with a silhouette of a Beretta style or revolver style handgun in it.

Which is quite entertaining for me as the icon is handgun and the code says what it says.

 

[ScottDLS]

This troll poll seems like a good thread for me to post another rant about signs.

Yesterday I went to a big car dealer in D/FW metro area to look at cars for my daughter who is turning 16. This was the first time in a while and also since Sept 1. The first dealer had properly posted 30.06 and 30.07 signs (I guess could quibble about the contrasting with the glass background. Anyway, I was carrying a .380 auto in my pocket. I saw the signs, but no 30.05 sign. So I went in anyway, even though I have a permit and had it on me. We looked at a couple cars and got the sales guy's card and left. If we want to get that model of car, we'll probably buy it there. I don't give a crap if their owner or corporate entity likes guns, doesn't like guns, etc. If the price and model is right, I'll buy at there. The other two dealers we visited didn't have any signs. If we like the car at one of them, we'll buy it there.