Pilot license

[toddnjoyce]

My thoughts on this are what if I wanted to like visit some friends in Idaho and take my guns, but I didn't want to drive 22 hours. Perhaps flying with a friend on their private plane would be cheaper.

Not unheard of. May not be any cheaper though.

Given today’s experience conditions it’s 1100NM from Austin to Boise. Call it 8+ hrs @ 135 knots and 15 gallons per hour fuel and $5/gal for AVGAS. There will be a fuel/bladder drop for this flight. Probably $600 in gas one way.

The FAA also has something known as common purpose, but so long as your buddy says sure, let’s split the cost, you’re pretty much good to go. But it can quickly get complicated in determining common purpose.

 

[Darkpriest667]

so 1200 round trip? That's not bad considering the gas alone to drive to boise is 1600+ miles + time saved. The cost in gas two ways for my corolla is 200 dollars HOWEVER, the 3300 miles wear and tear on my tires and vehicle would be more so. It might be worth the 1200 just to get there quicker and get back quicker.

 

[busykngt]

Especially considering most insurance companies will reimburse owners for expenses related to a safe harbor relocation so long as certain criteria will be met.

Cheaper for the insurer to do that then pay the claim.

Except in this case, none of them had insurance to begin with. Which in my way of thinking, made it doubly imperative they get the hell outta Dodge!

 

[V-Tach]

Those guys electing to not fly their planes out of the way of Harvey, what were they thinking?

They evidently weren't.......all said it (insurance) was too expensive.......but all could have afforded it....all 3 are over 70........

 

[toddnjoyce]

I mentioned aviation can be affordable. Here’s an example of one way to do it.

https://www.barnstormers.com/ad_mana...ch&user=eaa690

Motor (Rotax 912) runs about $15k, but you’ll get 10 years/1200 hrs from it.

Avionics would be another $10K for top of the line solution.

Paint $5k.

Very low operating and maintenance expenses.

Cons: not a family hauler.

 

[oohrah]

My thoughts. I have a PPL both fixed wing and helo. I fly for fun now, but echo the above about costs. You have to pick your options.

1. If you do decide to get a PPL, bank all the money it will take (estimated) and go fly, couple times a week minimum. If you try and pay as you go, you will not fly enough to improve and it will drag out your training time to years possibly.

2. Look into a partnership ownership, this can cut your fixed costs considerably. Renting is expensive. And don't forget that your friends or family can split fuel/operating costs with you. As long as you pay your fair share, you are not acting commercially.

3. There are reliable experimental-amateur built aircraft out there that can be had inexpensively, but those aircraft are still subject to annual inspection and maintenance requirements that you will have to pay someone to do unless you build the aircraft.

For the record, I am in a partnership with a 4-place low wing, and I built my own single seat helicopter and I have the Repairman certificate for that.

 

[deemus]

Have 3 friends that had planes at the Rockport airport before Harvey.....none of the three planes survived the hurricane and not one of the owners had insurance on their planes......

I think I would have flown that plane north.....

Before the hurricane.

 

[toddnjoyce]

3. There are reliable experimental-amateur built aircraft out there that can be had inexpensively, but those aircraft are still subject to annual inspection and maintenance requirements that you will have to pay someone to do unless you build the aircraft.

For the record, I am in a partnership with a 4-place low wing, and I built my own single seat helicopter and I have the Repairman certificate for that.

Technically, it’s a condition inspection. The Repairman Certificate allows the builder the authority to document completion of the condition inspection.

For the crowd, only the builder of record of an E-AB can apply for the repairman certificate as it’s particular to that specific aircraft. Alternatively an FAA A&P licensed mechanic can document completion of the condition inspection.

 

[TheDan]

don't forget that your friends or family can split fuel/operating costs with you. As long as you pay your fair share, you are not acting commercially.

What are some other ways you can offset the cost of the hobby?

 

[majormadmax]

 

[toddnjoyce]

What are some other ways you can offset the cost of the hobby?

Generally speaking, the best offset is renting unless there is a club or partnership available to you. Clubs or partnerships are the best way to offset the costs.

The thing to keep in mind with flying is that, much like the sea, it’s terribly unforgiving. Every takeoff is optional, every landing is required. But the law of diminishing returns says that there’s a minimum amount of time necessary just to maintain basic proficiency.

With a very structured regimen, you can maintain basic proficiency with probably 4hrs/month.

But that doesn’t work when your purpose is reliable cross country travel. Planes that fly more and often tend to be healthier planes. This is where partnerships or clubs really payoff. Not only are the costs shared and potentially an equity component for later recapture, but the healthy plane reduces the maintenance bills.

The sole owner needs deep pockets and needs to fly often. While expensive, it’s not as expensive and letting the bird rot in the ramp. In this scenario, it’s about owning the right aircraft, making smart decisions in the maintenance arena, and considering a partnership, whether it’s an equity or non-equity partnership.

 

[TheDan]

Generally speaking, the best offset is renting unless there is a club or partnership available to you.

Most of my other hobbies are partially self sustaining. Gardening and livestock are good enough to break even on. I can typically get "free" car parts by buying whole parts cars, taking what I need, and selling the rest. That does take some effort, however. Being an amateur mechanic helps, too. Never really tried to generate money with gun stuff; don't think I could as a hobby.

I know aviation is very tightly regulated and they've recently cracked down on people giving rides, but isn't there something else you could do to help other than just splitting costs with someone? That just spreads costs out, not offset them.

 

[toddnjoyce]

...

I know aviation is very tightly regulated and they've recently cracked down on people giving rides, but isn't there something else you could do to help other than just splitting costs with someone? That just spreads costs out, not offset them.

So, offsetting costs implies there’s compensation involved. The FAA takes a pretty broad interpretation of compensation, but they’re okay, in most instances with pro rata cost sharing. So there’s why you see cost sharing as a model.

Towing gliders can be done with a private license in very limited scenarios.

The entry to compensation requires a commercial certificate for the pilot, and one of several options to for the aircraft. Providing flight instruction is one way to offset cost. Requires appropriate certification. Sight seeing flights can be done with a Letter of Instruction agreed to by the FAA, but again requires the commercial license and has significant limitations.

The FAA philosophy is the revenue generation requires heightened supervision as public trust is involved. Used to be, you could make a small fortune out of a large fortune with a commuter airline because the pilot experience requirements were lower. Then, couple of bottom feeding regional airlines had some high profile fatal accidents and Congress said thou shalt have the same pilot requirements in a commuter as in a major airline as a knee jerk response.

 

[Rhino]

I know aviation is very tightly regulated and they've recently cracked down on people giving rides, but isn't there something else you could do to help other than just splitting costs with someone? That just spreads costs out, not offset them.

Finding a cheap airplane that doesn't cost too much to operate and own. My old Cessna 120 would maybe cost $1500-3000 to have an annual done per year and only cost about $24-30/hr for gas and fuel.

 

[toddnjoyce]

Airplane ownership horror story of the day. A new owner on a board I frequent is undergoing the first annual inspection of his ‘new’ 50-year old airplane.

Prior to purchasing the aircraft, he had what’s commonly known as a Pre-purchase inspection; these inspections are not required, not standardized, not regulated, and not legally binding. They are used by the purchaser to inform him whether or not to complete the deal as is, modify the deal, or cancel the deal.

Though I don’t know was was accomplished in this particular PPI, generally speaking there is an overall ‘this plane is airworthy or not’ report that comes from whoever accomplished the inspection.

Fast forward 8 months the plane’s required annual inspection is due. Owner delivers it to a highly recommended, but new to him FAA mechanic with the right creds to legally perform the annual. The annual inspection usually has two or three lists that are produced; airworthiness discrepancies - these mean the plane isn’t deemed legal to fly; maintenance discrepancies - these are items that may need to be done, but don’t jeopardize airworthiness; and then there’s planned/owner requested items to accomplish - these are usually intensive or expensive repairs or upgrades that make sense to do since it’ll already be opened up during annual.

The ‘new’ plane is sitting on jack stands right now, in his mechanics hangar, with all the inspection panels opened or removed, essential in a state of partial disassembly. The owner received the lists of discrepancies along with a quote to address them all. Needless to say, the owner feels he’s being held over the barrel and asserts the inspector doesn’t know his ass from his elbow, and is asking for advice on how to proceed.

For new owners, this happens more often than one would think, for a lot of reasons. Most of those reasons circle around the fact that as a renter, you’re provided an airworthy aircraft and you just write up the discrepancies and walk away, never getting exposed to the cost and process of ownership.

It’ll be interesting to see how this works out for the owner, as there are several paths he can take.

 

[oohrah]

When my partnership bought our airplane, we made the seller pay for a fresh annual (it was several months out anyway). We added on to it for accessories, but that way, there were no surprises.

If your A&P is reputable and recommended, you gotta go with them. Another option is find an A&P that will let you do a lot of the scut work, many will, and you save on labor, and you are up close and personal to the discrepancies.

 

[toddnjoyce]

When my partnership bought our airplane, we made the seller pay for a fresh annual (it was several months out anyway). We added on to it for accessories, but that way, there were no surprises.

If your A&P is reputable and recommended, you gotta go with them. Another option is find an A&P that will let you do a lot of the scut work, many will, and you save on labor, and you are up close and personal to the discrepancies.

Yeah, lots of ways to skin the cat. I’m a believer in owner-assisted maintenance and annuals and having the annual done in your hangar.

Not everyone wants or can do that, though. We’ve looked at Mooney’s a couple of times and that’s one plane that I would have the annuals done off site, at one of the three Mooney specialists in Texas. There’s just so much value to be had by having a shop that specializes on that airframe putting their eyes on it once a year.

 

[southtexaspilot]

My thoughts:

I’ve had two partnerships, both ended poorly. I’m sure good ones exist but I’ll never partner again. Pre buy inspections are a must. Do not use the seller’s IA/A&P. Have all money for flight training up front. If you only fly when you have money, you will end up repeating lessons and wasting money. Plus some schools will sell block time at a discount. Forget about renting. Most rental fleets are tied to schools. These are worn out tired aircraft that fail a preflight 50% of the time if you are vigil. IE, students never lean the mixture. Plugs will be fouled. Here in TX the big schools with nicer fleets have all gone foreign. There are so many Chinese students circling San Antonio, you’ll be lucky if an aircraft is available to rent. Plus most schools charge a 4 hour minimum per day for overnight trips. Don’t forget these aircraft are ugly. A rental may have 4 different colors of paint and interior. If your wife is nervous about flying, try putting her in this shitbox. Now on to seats. General rule is buy 2 more than you need. Got a family of 4? You need 6 seats. The FAA thinks we all weigh 120 lbs. The Cherokee 6 you mentioned is an exception. That thing is the suv of the skies. If it fits in the suburban, it fits in the Cherokee 6. But it’s slow! You won’t be going fast anywhere. Everything else said before is true. 100 hrs to break even. Fly once a week, especially if instrument rated. Never fly if you have to be somewhere. You’ll make bad decisions.

I’m currently building an RV14. Well I own a bunch of crates with one in it. Can’t start assembly until I finish this contract in Houston.

If none of this discourages you, welcome to the club! Get a class 3 medical and take your knowledge test before flying. It’s good for 2 years and you’ll understand more in the air. Yes you’ll score higher if you wait but who cares. I don’t wanna pay 40/hr to some cfi just to explain to me what Tomato Flames is.

W


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[Rhino]

Yeah, cheap plane probably - but not guaranteed - means expensive annual. Expensive planes can do that, too, but bargains aren't always bargains.

 

[toddnjoyce]

Airplane ownership horror story of the day. A new owner on a board I frequent is undergoing the first annual inspection of his ‘new’ 50-year old airplane...

Quick update. A little backstory here. Apparently, owner is using the previous owner’s inspector. New owner took the plane to a different, well-respected shop for some expensive avionics upgrades.

The inspector, who gave an even more expensive quote to do the upgrades, is now claiming the install isn’t satisfactory and will cost several dump trucks of dollars to fix.

Owner has issued stop work order and is *negotiating* how to get his plane back.

This is only the current owner’s side of the story and I don’t know the inspector, so who knows who’s right or wrong.