Private Handgun Purchase Bill Of Sale

[Charlie]

There are those of us that "do" give our information out to strangers, and there are those of us that "don't" give our information out to strangers. I prefer to be the latter. Just because one gives their credit card to a server in a restaurant, etc., does not mean one has to give it to all they encounter and increase the chances of it being compromised. I have to disagree with those folks that think it provides them with "insurance".

 

[ZX9RCAM]

Yeah, but that was for your "date".

The REALLY funny thing about it is I was called that morning by my bank, on my house phone, about a totally separate incident.

 

[Charlie]

The REALLY funny thing about it is I was called that morning by my bank, on my house phone, about a totally separate incident.

Probably 'cause you didn't get a "Bill of Sale"!

 

[benenglish]

For those of you that worry about ID theft or the like - how often does that happen?

All. The. Damn. Time.

Between my sister and me, about $8K over the last year. 20 years ago, someone impersonating me flew all over the west coast and racked up some impressive first-class airline bills. In between, I've assisted dozens of people with similar problems. I cannot count the hours I've spent on *.ru boards, just learning enough to avoid problems and advise others.

Count me in the camp of the the firmly paranoid.

Do you have the same fears when you hand your credit card to some 19 year old server at a restaurant who takes it completely out of your sight and runs it?

I would never do that. Who would be crazy enough to do that?

How do you know that the server didn't swipe it through a scanner while they were in the back and out of your sight?

Because if they're going to swipe it, they're going to do it right in front of me and I have some basic skills at recognizing the difference between a skimmer and a legit scanner.

All of the same information can be gleaned from the internet, your cc, hell your license plate for that matter if the person is industrious enough.

You protect against reasonably possible threats, draw a line where you think "reasonably possible" exists, then don't worry about the stuff on the other side.

These are not new issues. The same principles apply now that applied pre-internet. Heck, back when cell phones were $1000 and the size of a brick and online users were steeped in Gopher and BBSs, I managed to find a guy hiding in China. My boss wanted to see if I could do it and gave me leeway to expend a few more resources than usual but, ultimately, it wasn't that hard. (Protip - 9 times out of 10, if you can find the mom and apply pressure, you can find the son.)

So if someone wants to find you or find out all about you (essentially the same thing), it's always been possible. It's just that nowadays it's a bit easier, a bit more automated, and cautious people will be a bit more, well, cautious.

For a face to face sale, if someone wants to see my picture ID to prove I live in Texas, I'll accommodate that. If they want to photograph it or write anything down, I'm outta there.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

Probably 'cause you didn't get a "Bill of Sale"!

Probably.
They were verifying other charges against my card, which were valid, and never mentioned the hotel charge, lol.

 

[Charlie]

Not going to quote all of Ben's thread, but ................

"For a face to face sale, if someone wants to see my picture ID to prove I live in Texas, I'll accommodate that. If they want to photograph it or write anything down, I'm outta there."

This ^^^^ I do the same.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the burden of proof about an individual (buyer) about his ability to purchase a handgun does NOT fall on the seller. The seller is in trouble if the seller knows the buyer is not a Texas resident, but that's all.

 

[Lunyfringe]

I must be doing something right, only had a CC unauthorized charge once, and I caught that one in 10 minutes (CC texts me on charges over a certain amount, and when card is not present)

And you can ask for a BOS all you want, but we reserve the right to leave you standing there with a goofy look on your face as we walk away.

 

[Charlie]

We need a poll!

 

[Shady]

So a piece of paper is more valuable than your word when it comes to selling a gun. What makes you think that scrap of paper has any value at all. In proving you sold a gun to someone.

Cops go to the guy that bought it and ask is this your name on this paper buyer goes yep that is my name nope I did not buy a gun from him I have no idea how he got my info.

Good luck with your proof.

Its not a matter of ID theft for me as much as giving my name and address to someone I don't know who now knows where I live and there is a very good chance there are more guns in that home.

I would still like to see a real life example of how a BOS has helped someone over just telling the cops I sold that gun to someone that showed me his LTC.

We have seen examples of how it hurts.

I typically don't sell guns, but if I did, a BOS would be required. Nothing more than cheap insurance for me, because we don't do background checks for private sales and even if the person I'm selling to gives me zero outward appearance that they might be a bad guy, the fact of the matter is that the .gov can and will track down whomever purchased a firearm in the event it was involved in some type of crime.

Should I be the one that bought it from a dealer and subsequently sold it at some point after, I want proof of whom I sold it to and when. I expect the same for any firearm I buy from somebody else - to me it's just being smart and cheap insurance.

For those of you that worry about ID theft or the like - how often does that happen? Do you have the same fears when you hand your credit card to some 19 year old server at a restaurant who takes it completely out of your sight and runs it? How do you know that the server didn't swipe it through a scanner while they were in the back and out of your sight? All of the same information can be gleaned from the internet, your cc, hell your license plate for that matter if the person is industrious enough. Paranoia is a good thing, but there is something as way too much of it IMO.

 

[schmellba99]

We are going to just disagree. If it isn't in writing, it doesn't exist in my world. If I'm selling a firearm, a requirement will be to sign a bill of sale with your documentation on it. Mine will be there too. You get a copy, I get a copy.

To each his own.

 

[Renegade]

I typically don't sell guns, but if I did, a BOS would be required. Nothing more than cheap insurance for me

What do you think it insures you from?

1) You murder someone, you think a BOS gets you out if it?
2) You do not murder someone, you think lack of a BOS gets in you convicted?

we don't do background checks for private sales and even if the person I'm selling to gives me zero outward appearance that they might be a bad guy, the fact of the matter is that the .gov can and will track down whomever purchased a firearm in the event it was involved in some type of crime.

You just made the case NOT to do a BOS, so you cannot be tracked down.

 

[Lunyfringe]

We are going to just disagree. If it isn't in writing, it doesn't exist in my world. If I'm selling a firearm, a requirement will be to sign a bill of sale with your documentation on it. Mine will be there too. You get a copy, I get a copy.

To each his own.

Yes, we'll have to agree to disagree...
just because it's in writing, doesn't mean it exists in the real world.

If you require a BOS then you're NOT selling a firearm (to many on this forum)...
You want documentation, then get an FFL and put it in your bound book, then I'll do business with you.

ETA: A long time (like 15 years) ago , I did put my info on a BOS when buying an SKS before Private party sales required FFL and BGC in Colorado... In retrospect, those people were a bit sketchy, so I wasn't sure that was a good idea, and it bugged me for a while what they could do with my info. Since then I've bought and sold private party (mostly before the FFL requirement) without it. If there's no legal requirement for a BOS, I'm not doing one on a private party sale. To buy from an FFL, I am required by law to put my info on the 4473- so I do that, and it's a business- hopefully not as sketchy as some people in a trailer park looking for beer money (a reference to the people I bought the SKS from, not anyone on this board)

 

[Younggun]

If you want it documented, an FFL is the only way to go that actually matters. If someone wants a private sale to be documented I'm fine with going through an FFL so long as they pay the fee.

I won't do a BoS though.

 

[Shady]

So I take it you can't find where a BOS actually helped someone or did you just ignore that part ?

We are going to just disagree. If it isn't in writing, it doesn't exist in my world. If I'm selling a firearm, a requirement will be to sign a bill of sale with your documentation on it. Mine will be there too. You get a copy, I get a copy.

To each his own.

 

[AustinN4]

If someone wants a private sale to be documented I'm fine with going through an FFL so long as they pay the fee.

I like this solution, and will adopt it if I can. I have previously ignored all listings demanding a BOS. Gonna give it a try.

 

[easy rider]

In Texas I can understand getting a BOS on a car, because it's registered and until a title and registration changes names it can come back on you. Firearms are not registered and have no transfer of registration.

 

[Dawico]

So I take it you can't find where a BOS actually helped someone or did you just ignore that part ?

I just don't think he cares. His mind is made up that he is cleared of any wrong doing. Facts and proof matter not.

To each their own.

 

[AustinN4]

In Texas I can understand getting a BOS on a car, because it's registered and until a title and registration changes names it can come back on you. Firearms are not registered and have no transfer of registration.

https://etag.txdmv.gov/Vehicle/MainTransferNotification.aspx

When a Texas-titled vehicle is sold or traded in, the seller needs to notify TxDMV. By completing a Vehicle Transfer Notification you are notifying TxDMV that you have sold a vehicle. When you submit the form a remark will be added to the vehicle record which shows the date you sold the vehicle. This can protect you if the buyer fails to promptly transfer the title.

YOU MUST SUBMIT THE VEHICLE TRANSFER NOTIFICATION WITHIN 30 DAYS TO REMOVE LIABILITY

If you submit a transfer notification within 30 days of sale, the buyer shown becomes the vehicle's presumed owner and may be subject to criminal or civil liability for parking tickets, toll violations, fines or other penalties that occur after the date of sale.

 

[candcallen]

I BOS has no value in proving you sold a gun, well I guess it could if you had a notary stamp it.

It may lead to you being charged as a gun dealer without a license.

Regarding notarized signatures;

Notarized only means the signature is verified. What ever else is on the form they notarized isn't relevant to the notary. If I'm not mistaken. They aren't party to or verification of anything but signatures.

Regarding BOS's

True story. From a buyers prespective.
Guy buys gun on a board/forums classifieds much like this one. Lots of us only bought from this group as it was large, state wide, very active, lots of things to buy and very diligent feedback. Pretty good way to limit your chance to get screwed cause you're buying from guys who do lots of trading within the group. Flakes or dishonest people or people skirting laws get caught and blackballed pretty quick.

He, the buyer, was a bill of sale guy and the seller didn't care so they did the deed signed the paper made the exchange. Everyone was happy with a smooth transaction.

Sometime later he gets pulled over, for a traffic violation, and says to the officer I'm armed. Well Arss hole cop takes the gun to run it while treating him like a dangerous armed felon in the process.[a whole different story and topic] Suprise! Gun comes back stolen from years earlier and he arrests the owner, books him on felony of possession or receiving stolen property and 2 days later he gets out on bail.

We tell him keep your mouth shut get a lawyer etc. No he says, i did nothing wrong, I got a bill of sale, the guy I got it from is a board member we all dealt with and he will be stand up and he fully cooperates and points the cops to where he got it and all will be good.

He cooperates with police and they take a copy of his BOS and start the investigation and calls the other guy in to talk. That guy says no I don't recall selling that gun to him or signing a BOS. After back and forth with multiple interviews with the police, with everyone on the board telling him what "winner" of a guy he is, that we all know he sold it to the guy in trouble cause he did it online on a public forum and see here is the thread with the ad and pics of the gun and that the internet is forever he suddenly "remembers" the sale but says that wasn't the gun and he still never signed a BOS and serial number is different.

Case goes to trial. The whole thing plays out on witness stand with everyone getting various forms of cantrecallous except the guy on trial, cause he has a BOS did nothing wrong has integrity and won't lie, and he gets convicted of a felony.

The guy is really a mid 20 something kid who just got phuked but doesn't do prison time cause he has never been in trouble, and I think the judge realised what was going on. Still he is now a convicted felon and prohibited possessor. The best the judge can do is say after years of probation and not getting in trouble he can petition to get his rights back and the judge has no problem do this in his case.

BOS WAS USELESS. Couldn't even wipe his ars with it as it was an exhibit in the trial.

Prosecutor insinuated the BOS was just an attempt to cover possession of a gun he knew was likely stolen cause he admitted to getting a good deal during interview and questioning.

His life if phuked. His BOS was useless. His guns gone. Jobs gone. Car was seized and gone. Chances of good job under the future and even renting decent housing gone.

YMMV. While your BOS may provide a lead to a BATFE trace on a gun you bought then sold that they found involved in a crime it isn't any legal magical cover your ass document. It may also be, I say MAY BE helpful at trial if things go that far.

It may be helpful if you buy a stolen gun to show where you got it. MAY BE.

It is not proof of anything, and if you think it is and that's why you use them, you should reevaluate and understand that it may be useless for your intentions.

You do what you think is best. "You" meaning everyone in general no one specific.

 

[Hoji]

Regarding notarized signatures;

Notarized only means the signature is verified. What ever else is on the form they notarized isn't relevant to the notary. If I'm not mistaken. They aren't party to or verification of anything but signatures.

Regarding BOS's

True story. From a buyers prespective.
Guy buys gun on a board/forums classifieds much like this one. Lots of us only bought from this group as it was large, state wide, very active, lots of things to buy and very diligent feedback. Pretty good way to limit your chance to get screwed cause you're buying from guys who do lots of trading within the group. Flakes or dishonest people or people skirting laws get caught and blackballed pretty quick.

He, the buyer, was a bill of sale guy and the seller didn't care so they did the deed signed the paper made the exchange. Everyone was happy with a smooth transaction.

Sometime later he gets pulled over, for a traffic violation, and says to the officer I'm armed. Well Arss hole cop takes the gun to run it while treating him like a dangerous armed felon in the process.[a whole different story and topic] Suprise! Gun comes back stolen from years earlier and he arrests the owner, books him on felony of possession or receiving stolen property and 2 days later he gets out on bail.

We tell him keep your mouth shut get a lawyer etc. No he says, i did nothing wrong, I got a bill of sale, the guy I got it from is a board member we all dealt with and he will be stand up and he fully cooperates and points the cops to where he got it and all will be good.

He cooperates with police and they take a copy of his BOS and start the investigation and calls the other guy in to talk. That guy says no I don't recall selling that gun to him or signing a BOS. After back and forth with multiple interviews with the police, with everyone on the board telling him what "winner" of a guy he is, that we all know he sold it to the guy in trouble cause he did it online on a public forum and see here is the thread with the ad and pics of the gun and that the internet is forever he suddenly "remembers" the sale but says that wasn't the gun and he still never signed a BOS and serial number is different.

Case goes to trial. The whole thing plays out on witness stand with everyone getting various forms of cantrecallous except the guy on trial, cause he has a BOS did nothing wrong has integrity and won't lie, and he gets convicted of a felony.

The guy is really a mid 20 something kid who just got phuked but doesn't do prison time cause he has never been in trouble, and I think the judge realised what was going on. Still he is now a convicted felon and prohibited possessor. The best the judge can do is say after years of probation and not getting in trouble he can petition to get his rights back and the judge has no problem do this in his case.

BOS WAS USELESS. Couldn't even wipe his ars with it as it was an exhibit in the trial.

Prosecutor insinuated the BOS was just an attempt to cover possession of a gun he knew was likely stolen cause he admitted to getting a good deal during interview and questioning.

His life if phuked. His BOS was useless. His guns gone. Jobs gone. Car was seized and gone. Chances of good job under the future and even renting decent housing gone.

YMMV. While your BOS may provide a lead to a BATFE trace on a gun you bought then sold that they found involved in a crime it isn't any legal magical cover your ass document. It may also be, I say MAY BE helpful at trial if things go that far.

It may be helpful if you buy a stolen gun to show where you got it. MAY BE.

It is not proof of anything, and if you think it is and that's why you use them, you should reevaluate and understand that it may be useless for your intentions.

You do what you think is best. "You" meaning everyone in general no one specific.

What State was this in?