Private Party Sale Questions

[Charlie]

Could be or could not be. No anywhere close to having enough info, etc. about a gun transfer, person to person, etc.

 

[Charlie]

All the answers to your specific questions can be gotten from your friendly ATF office.

 

[Axxe55]

We could do this for hours on end with no valid answers.

Pretty much. There is only an arbitrary number that I think is just subjective to the agent doing the investigation and under what conditions the guns are being sold.

I have heard the number of more than five guns sold within a year, makes you an unlicensed dealer, for many years on various gun forums. I have asked repeatedly for years for any sources from the BATF for a statute on this, but to date, not one person can show me where that is the law regarding being a dealer.

My thoughts? Don't buy guns and then sell them. Keep them! If you sell a gun, NO BOS!

Personally, with the advent of the internet, and gun forums, I don't buy guns as much that end up getting sold because I was not happy with the gun, or that I was disappointed in the way it performed. I do lots more research into guns I'm interested in maybe buying, so there is less potential to have to sell it at a later date.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

Could be or could not be. No anywhere close to having enough info, etc. about a gun transfer, person to person, etc.

So then you are saying your scenario I based my question on is not valid?

 

[Charlie]

So then you are saying your scenario I based my question on is not valid?

Nope! Didn't say that. You changed the "scenario" by changing the numbers, etc. involved. And evidently you missed my earlier post:
"We could do this for hours on end with no valid answers." Post #42.
I don't care to play these "what if" games. I had enough of that from immature students when I was teaching in a public school.

 

[Renegade]

The law states you have to sell to a Texas resident

No law, State or Federal, says that.

The law says you cannot knowingly sell to a non-resident. So don't ask any questions or sell to a guy in his car with out of state plates.

 

[Renegade]

As for how many, this is the Federal Law:

The term “dealer” means (A) any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail, (B) any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms, or (C) any person who is a pawnbroker. The term “licensed dealer” means any dealer who is licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

The term “engaged in the business” means—
as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;

As applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(B), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms, or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;

The term “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit” means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection: Provided, That proof of profit shall not be required as to a person who engages in the regular and repetitive purchase and disposition of firearms for criminal purposes or terrorism. For purposes of this paragraph, the term “terrorism” means activity, directed against United States persons, which—

 

[Charlie]

As for how many, this is the Federal Law:

The term “dealer” means (A) any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail, (B) any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms, or (C) any person who is a pawnbroker. The term “licensed dealer” means any dealer who is licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

The term “engaged in the business” means—
as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;

As applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(B), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms, or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;

The term “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit” means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection: Provided, That proof of profit shall not be required as to a person who engages in the regular and repetitive purchase and disposition of firearms for criminal purposes or terrorism. For purposes of this paragraph, the term “terrorism” means activity, directed against United States persons, which—

Thank You! Mr. Renegade!

 

[Axxe55]

And under the provisions of those laws, buying and reselling one firearm could be viewed as being an unlicensed gun dealer.

If I see a gun at a gun store, or gun show, buying it and knowing I could resell it at a profit, with that intent, that one gun could be construed as operating as a dealer.

IMO, one gun would be hard to prove intent, but unless I'm mistaken they have arrested on such grounds before. Where they went from there, I have no idea.

 

[Renegade]

Thank You! Mr. Renegade!

No problem most folks know if they are buying/selling "with the principal objective of livelihood and profit”, as that is a pretty high bar and it specifically excludes "improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection".

 

[oldag]

As for how many, this is the Federal Law:

The term “dealer” means (A) any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail, (B) any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms, or (C) any person who is a pawnbroker. The term “licensed dealer” means any dealer who is licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

The term “engaged in the business” means—
as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;

As applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(B), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms, or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;

The term “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit” means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection: Provided, That proof of profit shall not be required as to a person who engages in the regular and repetitive purchase and disposition of firearms for criminal purposes or terrorism. For purposes of this paragraph, the term “terrorism” means activity, directed against United States persons, which—

Sadly, the ATF has been known to use this in its most possible restrictive interpretation.

 

[GoPappy]

Where is the section that says a BOS makes you immune to criminal prosecution and civil liability?

As for how many, this is the Federal Law:

The term “dealer” means (A) any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail, (B) any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms, or (C) any person who is a pawnbroker. The term “licensed dealer” means any dealer who is licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

The term “engaged in the business” means—
as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;

As applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(B), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms, or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;

The term “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit” means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection: Provided, That proof of profit shall not be required as to a person who engages in the regular and repetitive purchase and disposition of firearms for criminal purposes or terrorism. For purposes of this paragraph, the term “terrorism” means activity, directed against United States persons, which—

 

[Nightwatch]

A conviction for buyer or seller who in an individual sale bought a handgun out of his state or sold to one who lived out of his state(even son or daughter) is a felony. I personally won't take that risk even once. If he can't show me a TX ID, I'm not selling. I don't write it down, snap a pic, or anything like that...no paperwork...but I'll be able to testify I saw his TX ID. I'm not losing my gun rights over such a rinky-dink felony. Never had a seller ask for my ID in a FTF...the folded Benjamins seem to help them focus on the sale.

 

[Renegade]

A conviction for buyer or seller who in an individual sale bought a handgun out of his state or sold to one who lived out of his state(even son or daughter) is a felony. I personally won't take that risk even once. If he can't show me a TX ID, I'm not selling. I don't write it down, snap a pic, or anything like that...no paperwork...but I'll be able to testify I saw his TX ID. I'm not losing my gun rights over such a rinky-dink felony. Never had a seller ask for my ID in a FTF...the folded Benjamins seem to help them focus on the sale.

The law says you cannot knowingly sell to someone out of state. The best way to do this then is to ask no questions, and make it anonymous. Outside of friends, I have no idea who I sold guns to and they have no idea who I am. That is the way I like it.

Once you start questioning someone about their residency, you create a fact pattern suggesting you had reason to believe they might not be a resident. You also risk thy might be able to ID you, and that will not end well if they are prohibited and rat you out.

And yes, their have been plenty of convictions in this regard. There have been zero convictions when both parties remain anonymous. YMMV.

 

[Nightwatch]

Matter of choice which way one handles it...just as long as one doesn't screw up. When they get into a corner, most folks would give up their mothers to get a plea bargaining deal...there are no "secrets" when their balls are in a vise.

 

[Shady]

Matter of choice which way one handles it...just as long as one doesn't screw up. When they get into a corner, most folks would give up their mothers to get a plea bargaining deal...there are no "secrets" when their balls are in a vise.

If neither party knows who the other is how can having your balls in a vice change anything.

 

[Nightwatch]

There is no guarantee of anonymous. Someone called someone, someone met someone, who copied a license plate? Who saved a phone number? If the gun's used in a crime, or the person who has it is involved in a crime, LEOS start at the manufacturer and can often trace it to where the now seller bought it, or the new buyer tells them how they met you...MANY ways you can be found.

Best is to follow the law carefully, then you haven't broken it...and have nothing to worry about.

 

[Renegade]

There is no guarantee of anonymous. Someone called someone, someone met someone, who copied a license plate? Who saved a phone number? If the gun's used in a crime, or the person who has it is involved in a crime, LEOS start at the manufacturer and can often trace it to where the now seller bought it, or the new buyer tells them how they met you...MANY ways you can be found.

Best is to follow the law carefully, then you haven't broken it...and have nothing to worry about.

There is if done properly at gun shows.

But yeah, nothing is anonymous on the internet unless you have burner everything.

 

[Nightwatch]

With security cameras, I wouldn't even count on at gun shows. I like Baretta's old saying "Don't do da crime if you can't do da time." Like I said earlier...matter of choice. When you know the law, and follow the law, then, on your part, no crime exists, no matter who or what the other guy turns out to be/do.

With all the planned changes, a lot of wiggle room will go away quickly...and a lot of folks will just stop dealing. Papers, please...

 

[avvidclif]

There is no guarantee of anonymous. Someone called someone, someone met someone, who copied a license plate? Who saved a phone number? If the gun's used in a crime, or the person who has it is involved in a crime, LEOS start at the manufacturer and can often trace it to where the now seller bought it, or the new buyer tells them how they met you...MANY ways you can be found.

Best is to follow the law carefully, then you haven't broken it...and have nothing to worry about.

Simple. You ask if I live in Texas, I hand over money, you hand over gun. Bye.