Q: Is it legally possible to own identical copies of a Machine Gun?

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  • Gilgondorin

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    Greetings to all.

    I remember overhearing in a discussion once that it's not possible for non-dealer individuals to own more than one example of a given type of machine gun -- like for example two full auto fixed-stock AKM's -- unless they were markedly different from each other (EX: full auto AKM with a fixed stock, and a full auto AKM underfolder), because while one would "fill a gap in the collection", the second would not fill a constructive use or whatever the crazy bureaucratic term is. (EDIT: Thread title is accidentally misleading, sorry; I meant two identical MODEL machine guns, not two 100% identical-to-each-other units.)

    Assuming finances/availability are a non-issue and the required ATF approval is sought, is there really a prohibition, either formal (actually written in the law) or informal (fat chance on actually getting the second approved)?

    (I apologize in advance if this is a dumb question; I'm not familiar with the rules regarding machine guns.)
     
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    Shady

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    you cant own identical MG's because they have to have a different serial Number. You can own 10 colt ar full autos the only difference will be the serial numbers if they are all stock guns.
     

    SC-Texas

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    If they are transferable you may own what you want.

    Are you talking about post 86 dealer samples?

    Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
     

    Gilgondorin

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    you cant own identical MG's because they have to have a different serial Number. You can own 10 colt ar full autos the only difference will be the serial numbers if they are all stock guns.

    I was referring to identical examples of a given model, not identical down to the serial number. EDIT: I realize now my thread title was misleading, sorry.

    Either way though, the second half of your response still answers the question, and I guess the person I overheard was mistaken.

    Thank you very much for a timely and concise response.

    Are you talking about post 86 dealer samples?

    I'm not sure, to be honest. Is there a difference between pre and post 86 dealer samples?
     
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    benenglish

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    you cant own identical MG's because they have to have a different serial Number.
    Technically, no. If we had a time machine and could go back to the 1968 amnesty, it would be possible to grind off the serial number and engrave a new one identical to one already in our collection. The registration during the amnesty would have been accepted.

    I sincerely doubt anyone did that but it could have happened. It would have caused problems later on, obviously.

    The same "it could have but I doubt it did" applies to the importation of machine guns post-1986. I don't know when the language was dropped from the federal statutes but for at least a while after, the importation licensing requirements for military flag officers remained the same, i.e. they required nothing other than declaring the firearm to customs. They could personally import any firearm they could pack in a suitcase.
     

    JWBost

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    If I understand your question correctly, then yes, you may own multiples of a model, even if the model is similar, as long as each gun is properly registered as a transferable. For example, you can own multiple Colt M16A2 guns, so long as each gun is a separately registered transferable.

    What you can not do is make a doppelgänger of the transferable, and keep the doppelgänger as a back up. Technically you can do this if you are an 07/02, but the doppelgänger would be a post sample, which can not be owned by civilians.

    I looked at the ATF website, and there is no restriction on the uniqueness, or lack thereof, of a serial number. If I am wrong, I would appreciate some correction. I’ve seen at least two guns with the serial number ‘1’.
     

    Gilgondorin

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    If I understand your question correctly, then yes, you may own multiples of a model, even if the model is similar, as long as each gun is properly registered as a transferable. For example, you can own multiple Colt M16A2 guns, so long as each gun is a separately registered transferable.

    Yes, you understood right.

    Thank you guys for the responses!
     

    DwnRange

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    IIRC, there are only something like 186,619 transferable machine guns in the US and the 1986 FOPA banned the "all" new production of fully automatic firearms for civilians. Now there was some guy back in 2014 that tried a technicality loop-hole to get around it, but to the best of my knowledge it did not pan out. Post '86 Class III MGs are not allowed in civilian hands.
     

    Renegade

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    IIRC, there are only something like 186,619 transferable machine guns in the US and the 1986 FOPA banned the "all" new production of fully automatic firearms for civilians. Now there was some guy back in 2014 that tried a technicality loop-hole to get around it, but to the best of my knowledge it did not pan out. Post '86 Class III MGs are not allowed in civilian hands.

    What does that have to do with owning multiple copies of the same type MG gun?
     

    DwnRange

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    That is what I asked!

    How so with post 86 MGs?

    Any questions regarding post '86 MGs is above my pay grade as this is an open forum. I thought you were asking "why" there are no civilian owned post '86 MGs.
     

    TX OMFS

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    WTF?

    Where does this stuff come from.....
    I bet it comes from the Form 4 question 13 about why you need the item you are applying for. Someone thought the ATF would deny you because you didn't have a good, unique answer to that question.
     

    grumper

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    I bet it comes from the Form 4 question 13 about why you need the item you are applying for. Someone thought the ATF would deny you because you didn't have a good, unique answer to that question.

    Either that or confusion regarding LE love letters to purchase post-86 dealer samples.
     

    Joshua - Capitol Armory

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    I was going to say it probably has some sort of strange roots in love letters and that ridiculous rule about transferring in multiple posties of the same model.
     

    pharmaco

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    Technically, no. If we had a time machine and could go back to the 1968 amnesty, it would be possible to grind off the serial number and engrave a new one identical to one already in our collection. The registration during the amnesty would have been accepted.

    I sincerely doubt anyone did that but it could have happened. It would have caused problems later on, obviously.

    The same "it could have but I doubt it did" applies to the importation of machine guns post-1986. I don't know when the language was dropped from the federal statutes but for at least a while after, the importation licensing requirements for military flag officers remained the same, i.e. they required nothing other than declaring the firearm to customs. They could personally import any firearm they could pack in a suitcase.
    Ian did a great video on that subject

     
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