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reported false 51% sign & a question

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  • rrent

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    Temple, Texas --Frank Mayborn Center ---during a Chamber of Commerce show a couple of weeks ago I noticed a stange conglomeration of 51% signs.

    At main entrance correct red 51%, at next entry to left same sign no 51%, door to the right same sign 51% in black.

    There was no acohol being served and at $600.00 per booth they would have been hard pressed to sell 51% of the revenue in boose.

    One of my co works upon learning (from me, CHL holder) what the purpose of the 51% sign is, got the phone number off of the sign, called ATF, and report the false use of the sign. She was informed it was a fine-able offense and asked if she wanted an ATF agent to come by and check it out. She did and I suspect the signs have been removed --I haven't been back to look.

    My co work, a non-gun owner, made the call - in her words: "just because it wasn't right, if there are rules everyone should follow them".

    Now the question ---- if a CHL holder encounters what is so obviously a false use of an otherwise correct sign ---would you carry your gun, or leave it in your car?
     

    JKTex

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    Whether the sign is not displayed in accordance with the law doesn't relieve you from your duty to obey the law.

    In other words, it's for the ATF to decide if a 51% sign is or is not displayed in accordance with the law, not you. You carry, you're breaking the law.

    On the other hand, if they did it on purpose, and I can't see how someone could say it was an accident, I hope they get popped up the wazzoo. I'd also hope that local media could get a hold of the story and run it to bring attention to the person or persons responsible to set an example that you can't take the law into you're own hands. They should have had 30.06 signs posted if they intended to keep CHL holders from carrying.
     

    txinvestigator

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    Uhh, the ATF has nothing to do with the posting of signs relative to CHL laws in Texas. The Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission regulates the 51% signs.

    And whether there is a sign or not does not affect the legality of carrying there. A place the derives 51% or more of its income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for on-premise consumption is off limits to concealed carry whether or not a sign is posted.

    A place that does not derive 51% or more of its income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for on-premise consumption is not off limits even if they post the sign.

    The posting of the sign is not what activates the prohibition to carry; it is the status of the location. The TABC requires that 51% places post the proper signs; however. it is not a defense if you carry in a 51% place that was not posted.

    The TABC will enforce signage.
     

    txinvestigator

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    Now the question ---- if a CHL holder encounters what is so obviously a false use of an otherwise correct sign ---would you carry your gun, or leave it in your car?

    I would look at the actual TABC license. If it reads;

    Sign = Blue, I would carry.

    Sign=Red, I would not, as that would be illegal.
     

    Renegade

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    Now the question ---- if a CHL holder encounters what is so obviously a false use of an otherwise correct sign ---would you carry your gun, or leave it in your car?


    Well if it is obviously a false use of an otherwise correct sign, such as a 51% sign in front of the Home Depot, I carry no problem.
     

    rrent

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    txinvestigator - she called the phone number off of the sign, so it must have been the TABC.

    So, as with the example of a 51% sign on a Home Depot - since the correct 30.06 sign is not posted carry should be lawful.
     

    Texan2

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    If the sign is posted...it is illegal for a CHL holder to carry there...period. Now, that having been said, you can call and see about getting the sign taken down, but as long as it is up, you are breaking the law by carrying there. Doesn't matter if the sign is misplaced. This is not a hard concept to grasp.
     

    JKTex

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    Uhh, the ATF has nothing to do with the posting of signs relative to CHL laws in Texas.

    Oop's :p The op said ATF and I saw/assumed/was thinking TABC but I carried on with the wrong agency.

    And agreed, it's the TABC that determines whether they are a 51% or not, but in this case, that's no the issue.

    Thanks for catching and correcting us.

    If the sign is posted...it is illegal for a CHL holder to carry there...period. Now, that having been said, you can call and see about getting the sign taken down, but as long as it is up, you are breaking the law by carrying there. Doesn't matter if the sign is misplaced. This is not a hard concept to grasp.

    That's what I was thinking. Me, nor anyone else but the TABC can say whether they are a 51% or not so if someone is misusing a TABC sign, TABC will handle that part. I'm not taking a chance, but in a case like this, I may say something, and make sure they notice the TABC phone number on the sign, and my mobile phone, which I'm likely dialing.
     

    txinvestigator

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    If the sign is posted...it is illegal for a CHL holder to carry there...period.
    Completely wrong. The law proscribing carry in a 51% place does not even mention a sign.


    Now, that having been said, you can call and see about getting the sign taken down, but as long as it is up, you are breaking the law by carrying there. Doesn't matter if the sign is misplaced. This is not a hard concept to grasp.

    OK, I'll post the law for those who seem to be unable to grasp the concept :banghead:


    Texas Penal Code

    Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.

    (b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:
    (1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;



    I am pretty dense, but I don't see that it is illegal to carry where the sign is posted because IT IS NOT!

    AND, you have no defense if you carry in a 51% place but no sign was posted. The sign is irrelevant; the status of the location is what matters.
    TABC requires, in THEIR laws that affect licensed placed, to post the 51% sign. The penal code that affects CHLers makes no call for a sign or the observance of one.

     

    Texan2

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    Completely wrong. The law proscribing carry in a 51% place does not even mention a sign.




    OK, I'll post the law for those who seem to be unable to grasp the concept :banghead:


    [/size]


    I am pretty dense, but I don't see that it is illegal to carry where the sign is posted because IT IS NOT!

    AND, you have no defense if you carry in a 51% place but no sign was posted. The sign is irrelevant; the status of the location is what matters.
    TABC requires, in THEIR laws that affect licensed placed, to post the 51% sign. The penal code that affects CHLers makes no call for a sign or the observance of one.

    Hang tght....I wasn't trying to insult anyone.

    My point to the general public is that... it is not up to an individual to ignore the 51% sign because THEY think it is inappropriate. We have those signs posted in some very bizarre paces in my jurisdiction and when I asked our TABC guy about them, he explained how those locations qualified....lots do that you may not ever think of.
    It would be an uphill battle to prove that you knew better than the property owner as to how they generate their income. So, safe play is to trust the sign.
    My apology if I was misunderstood...
     

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