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Response to Property Burglary

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  • Taildragger-J3

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    Jun 10, 2010
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    Aggieland, Texas
    Not asking for authoritative legal advice, just wondering.

    By my understanding, we are within our rights to defend ourselves and property when being robbed - property taken from us by force. If, however, I discover someone has broken into my shop and is hauling off several $$ worth of tools and personal property, what recourse do I have to stop a burglary in process. Calling 911 should obviously be done, but waiting 10-20 minutes for LEOS to arrive means that my stuff will be LONG gone.

    There have been a few burglaries in our neighborhood on the edge of town and it got me to thinking.
    Guns International
     

    Mikewood

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    Jan 8, 2011
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    While the use of deadly force to protect property or criminal mischief during the night is lawful you must weigh the property against the cost of the use. Say you loose your nice 20v dewalt tool set plus your big rolling tool box and a couple power tools. The cost might be $5,000 or so. That sounds like a lot. In Texas if you lawfully shoot someone you must go before a grand jury. A “slam dunk” trial is about $10,000-15,000.

    When it comes to the life of my family a $15,000 bill from a lawyer is nothing. Otherwise I have nothing in my garage worth the headache of dealing with lawyers.

    Why not spend a few hundred reenforcing your garage to make it more criminal resistant. Lights, siren, pin the doors or add electric doors. That’s cheap.
     

    Dawico

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    Oct 15, 2009
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    Lampasas, Texas
    While the use of deadly force to protect property or criminal mischief during the night is lawful you must weigh the property against the cost of the use. Say you loose your nice 20v dewalt tool set plus your big rolling tool box and a couple power tools. The cost might be $5,000 or so. That sounds like a lot. In Texas if you lawfully shoot someone you must go before a grand jury. A “slam dunk” trial is about $10,000-15,000.

    When it comes to the life of my family a $15,000 bill from a lawyer is nothing. Otherwise I have nothing in my garage worth the headache of dealing with lawyers.

    Why not spend a few hundred reenforcing your garage to make it more criminal resistant. Lights, siren, pin the doors or add electric doors. That’s cheap.

    So you always have to go to trial even if it is a slam dunk case? That doesn't sound right but could very well be mistaken.
     

    Dawico

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    Not asking for authoritative legal advice, just wondering.

    By my understanding, we are within our rights to defend ourselves and property when being robbed - property taken from us by force. If, however, I discover someone has broken into my shop and is hauling off several $$ worth of tools and personal property, what recourse do I have to stop a burglary in process. Calling 911 should obviously be done, but waiting 10-20 minutes for LEOS to arrive means that my stuff will be LONG gone.

    There have been a few burglaries in our neighborhood on the edge of town and it got me to thinking.
    Call the police while following them.
     

    Mikewood

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    Jan 8, 2011
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    So you always have to go to trial even if it is a slam dunk case? That doesn't sound right but could very well be mistaken.

    Yep. 100% of all cases where deadly force is used must appear before a grand jury. Most self defense cases are no bills meaning the grand jury does not formally bring charges against the defendant. When they do then the defendant is tried in criminal court which is separate from the grand jury proceeding. There is also less of a burden of proof needed in the criminal trial so if you make it past the grand jury the criminal trial should result in a conviction.
     

    Lunyfringe

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    So you always have to go to trial even if it is a slam dunk case? That doesn't sound right but could very well be mistaken.

    Grand jury isn't the trial... they decide if you'll be indicted.
    www.texasmonthly.com/the-daily-post/is-the-grand-jury-system-in-texas-broken/

    Doesn't mean it won't suck.
    And shooting someone over stuff is not the same as directly defending your (or someone else's) life... this is where security cameras, etc can help deter or ID thieves.

    Oh, and thieves suck...
     
    Last edited:

    TAZ

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    Yep. 100% of all cases where deadly force is used must appear before a grand jury. Most self defense cases are no bills meaning the grand jury does not formally bring charges against the defendant. When they do then the defendant is tried in criminal court which is separate from the grand jury proceeding. There is also less of a burden of proof needed in the criminal trial so if you make it past the grand jury the criminal trial should result in a conviction.

    Ok. This is completely bassakwards from what I’ve been told. My understanding is that you will face a grand jury no matter what. The purpose of the grand jury is to figure out if a trial is warranted not wether one is guilty. GJ are not as formal as a trial where guilt must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. This is why prosecutors can shop GJ till they get one that dies what they want. You can be billed by a GJ and still be found innocent by a jury. Criminal trial has a relatively high burden of proof. Higher than a GJ or Civil case.

    If you are no billed by a GJ you may get some protection from civil suits. No real idea how much. If you’re billed you will go to trial in criminal court. If you’re found innocent you may get some protection from civil suits. If not you’re ass is going to jail and the poorhouse as the civil suits will mount in addition to the criminal process you’re going to be going through.

    Either way, you’re going to be in legal hell for weeks to months to years. What thing in your life is truly worth all that risk? In my non lawyer opinion, if you’re pulling a gun and shooting someone you better have a good reason why you feel you, your loved ones or some other person is in imminent danger.
     

    txinvestigator

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    All felonies go to Grand Jury. All a GJ does is determine if there is probable cause to go to trial, a lower "burden of proof" than a trial. Grand Juries return either a True Bill (Indictment) or a No Bill. A No Bill does not invoke double jeopardy.

    Deadly force might be justified to prevent a burglary. See Texas Penal Code sections 9.31, 9.32, 9.41 and 9.42. Words like reasonable belief, immediately necessary and imminent have meaning in the code.

    Nighttime makes no difference in regards to burglary, and blanket statements about "at night you can bust a cap in that ass" are foolish.
     

    Renegade

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    Mar 5, 2008
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    But nighttime does make a difference when it comes to robbery, doesn't it?

    Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:

    (1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and

    (2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

    (A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or

    (B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and

    (3) he reasonably believes that:

    (A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or

    (B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.
     

    ZX9RCAM

    Over the Rainbow bridge...
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    Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:

    (1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and

    (2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

    (A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or

    (B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and

    (3) he reasonably believes that:

    (A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or

    (B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.
    This is what I was familiar with, but seems to go against what TI said, no?
     

    stdreb27

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    So you always have to go to trial even if it is a slam dunk case? That doesn't sound right but could very well be mistaken.

    There is a high likelihood that you'll at least get in front of a grand jury. Where you're going to have to demonstrate that your case falls under the defenses listed in the law.




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    andre3k

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    Aug 8, 2008
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    My mom shot a guy that was trying to steal my dad's truck. He ended up dying at the hospital. I remember being more scared than my mom because she told me to get her purse and I knew what that meant. Honestly, I don't even remember her going before a grand jury to testify. She was never charged, but this was in 1992.
     
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