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Rifle caliber for shooting paper at 200 yards

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  • ROGER4314

    Been Called "Flash" Since I Was A Kid!
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    1   0   0
    Jul 11, 2009
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    The wind can effect the .17hmr a little more than the .22mag, but the .17hmr is so much flatter out to 200. Should be a fun competition on a 10-15mph day.

    It's true that a .17 projectile is affected by wind more than a larger bullet. The .17 however, smokes down range so quickly that the wind has less time to work on it.

    Here's the nuts and bolts of the .17HMR...……..
    At 200 yards, the bullseye "X" ring is the size of a golf ball. Normally, the pit guys mark your hits with a 3" spotter. With the .17HMR, we used painted golf "T's" for our hit markers and frequently blew the golf "T's" apart with our following shot. Summed up, we put two rounds into the same hole at 200 yards!

    It's a tradition for the pit man to deliver the blasted markers to the shooter. Got a nice collection of them!

    Flash
     

    Younggun

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    It’s more effected by wind even with the shorter flight times. The bullets speed really doesn’t change that.

    That said, it probably won’t be a major different. I show a few inches difference at 200 yards with a 10mph. But a few inches is a big difference if trying to beat someone in a friendly competition, especially if the wind is shifting.


    I used to think speed was king for beating the wind until a member hear talked me in to comparing the wind drift for something like a 45-70 to rounds normally considered to cheat the wind. 45-70 blew them away. Speed doesn’t stop the effects of wind and a bullet loosing velocity faster is more effected. And the .17 sheds velocity pretty darn fast.

    Edit to add: the .17 HMR will typically beat a .22 mag in inherent accuracy. So it’s not just about wind.

    Most comparisons I’ve seen between the .17HMR and .17WSM for example show the HMR winning hands down out to a couple hundred yards, but around that point the WSM begins to shine due to its greater ability to deal with the environment. Same bullet in this case so the extra velocity does help when it comes to wind, but at shorter ranges where it’s less of a factor inherent accuracy of the HMR wins. Same can happen when comparing .17HMR to the .22mag with the mag coming out on top.

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    benenglish

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    It’s more effected by wind even with the shorter flight times.
    ...
    I used to think speed was king for beating the wind until a member hear talked me in to comparing the wind drift for something like a 45-70 to rounds normally considered to cheat the wind. 45-70 blew them away. Speed doesn’t stop the effects of wind and a bullet loosing velocity faster is more effected. And the .17 sheds velocity pretty darn fast.
    It makes my heart dance with joy to hear somebody speak up who actually understands this. For everybody else -

    Wind deflection is a function of the rate of velocity loss. It has nothing to do with velocity or flight time.

    Anybody can do an experiment to prove this with any bullet. Plug any bullet into any decent ballistics calculator. Launch the bullet at 975 fps and at 1300 fps and check wind drift at 200 yards with a steady 10 mph crosswind.

    Example? Plug in those numbers for a random bullet (say, a .243 115 Berger VLD) into the JBM drift calculator that everyone uses and trusts. While the flight time of the faster bullet is ~20% less than the slower bullet, the faster bullet drifts 8.3 inches while the slower bullet drifts only 4.1 inches.

    It's possible to spend a lifetime shooting successfully in competition but never grasp the concept that...
    The .17 however, smokes down range so quickly that the wind has less time to work on it.
    ...speed and flight time have absolutely ZERO to do with wind drift.

    Drift is a function of the rate of velocity loss. Above about 2100 fps, speed, rate of velocity loss, and drift track with each other. It's easy to get the impression that more speed equals less drift all the time. That's completely wrong. I am astounded at the number of experienced long-range rifle shooters who do not understand this. They're the ones who, deep down, don't really know why a 168SMK out of a .308 is such a joy out to 600 yards but goes completely to hell somewhere between 800 and 1000. They talk about "the transonic region" and do some hand-waving but, all too often, they don't really understand what's happening.

    If you want to see perfectly linear wind drift all the way to the target, bullet velocity must be kept over 2000 fps for the entire trip.

    Want an interesting illustration of that?
    • The .17HMR with a 20 grain bullet, according to the factory, launches at 2375. Plug that into the JBM calculator and the drift at 200 yards in a 10 mph crosswind is 17.8 inches.
    • OTOH, load a round of Eley Tenex .22LR into a barrel short enough to get the muzzle velocity down to 975 fps and the wind drift at 200 yards in that same wind is 14.9 inches.
    The reason those numbers seem so weird is that the poor 17 HMR falls below 2000 fps before it goes 100 yards and is only going about 1300 fps at 200. That 2000 fps to 1300 fps range is where all bullets lose their minds and start to drift in the wind to a ridiculous degree, compared to what they were doing when they were traveling over 2100.

    Of course, shooting subsonic rimfires at 200 yards invites elevation errors. The same is true if you want to stretch your 300BO with subsonic loads out to several hundred yards. So it's a balancing act and there are plenty of ways to weigh up what you consider important and what you don't.

    But the oversimplification of wind drift to "more speed is better" is a personal pet peeve. I really wish people would learn this stuff. I have multiple pieces of correspondence from a ballistician at Sierra from when I was a kid and I noticed things I didn't understand about all this in their published ballistics charts. (Us old guys remember when the reloading manuals were so thick because they had a hundred plus pages of numbers in dense charts in the back, all to describe bullets in flight.) They caught onto the "Wind drift has nothing to do with speed; it's a function of the rate of velocity loss" back when they were compiling the tables for the first edition of the Sierra manual. He told me fascinating stories about how they were surprised to see the .45-70 outperforming other, faster cartridges when it came to wind drift at intermediate ranges.

    This was new thinking 60 or 70 years ago but that was a long time ago. There's no reason for anyone to still be confused about it.
     

    Younggun

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    It makes my heart dance with joy to hear somebody speak up who actually understands this. For everybody else -


    Who do you think I was talking about when I mentioned someone here correcting me?


    Be pleased with yourself, you’ve reached at least 1 person.



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    toddnjoyce

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    4   0   0
    Sep 27, 2017
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    It makes my heart dance with joy to hear somebody speak up who actually understands this. For everybody else -

    Wind deflection is a function of the rate of velocity loss. It has nothing to do with velocity or flight time.

    Anybody can do an experiment to prove this with any bullet. Plug any bullet into any decent ballistics calculator. Launch the bullet at 975 fps and at 1300 fps and check wind drift at 200 yards with a steady 10 mph crosswind.

    Example? Plug in those numbers for a random bullet (say, a .243 115 Berger VLD) into the JBM drift calculator that everyone uses and trusts. While the flight time of the faster bullet is ~20% less than the slower bullet, the faster bullet drifts 8.3 inches while the slower bullet drifts only 4.1 inches.

    It's possible to spend a lifetime shooting successfully in competition but never grasp the concept that......speed and flight time have absolutely ZERO to do with wind drift.

    Drift is a function of the rate of velocity loss. Above about 2100 fps, speed, rate of velocity loss, and drift track with each other. It's easy to get the impression that more speed equals less drift all the time. That's completely wrong. I am astounded at the number of experienced long-range rifle shooters who do not understand this. They're the ones who, deep down, don't really know why a 168SMK out of a .308 is such a joy out to 600 yards but goes completely to hell somewhere between 800 and 1000. They talk about "the transonic region" and do some hand-waving but, all too often, they don't really understand what's happening.

    If you want to see perfectly linear wind drift all the way to the target, bullet velocity must be kept over 2000 fps for the entire trip.

    Want an interesting illustration of that?
    • The .17HMR with a 20 grain bullet, according to the factory, launches at 2375. Plug that into the JBM calculator and the drift at 200 yards in a 10 mph crosswind is 17.8 inches.
    • OTOH, load a round of Eley Tenex .22LR into a barrel short enough to get the muzzle velocity down to 975 fps and the wind drift at 200 yards in that same wind is 14.9 inches.
    The reason those numbers seem so weird is that the poor 17 HMR falls below 2000 fps before it goes 100 yards and is only going about 1300 fps at 200. That 2000 fps to 1300 fps range is where all bullets lose their minds and start to drift in the wind to a ridiculous degree, compared to what they were doing when they were traveling over 2100.

    Of course, shooting subsonic rimfires at 200 yards invites elevation errors. The same is true if you want to stretch your 300BO with subsonic loads out to several hundred yards. So it's a balancing act and there are plenty of ways to weigh up what you consider important and what you don't.

    But the oversimplification of wind drift to "more speed is better" is a personal pet peeve. I really wish people would learn this stuff. I have multiple pieces of correspondence from a ballistician at Sierra from when I was a kid and I noticed things I didn't understand about all this in their published ballistics charts. (Us old guys remember when the reloading manuals were so thick because they had a hundred plus pages of numbers in dense charts in the back, all to describe bullets in flight.) They caught onto the "Wind drift has nothing to do with speed; it's a function of the rate of velocity loss" back when they were compiling the tables for the first edition of the Sierra manual. He told me fascinating stories about how they were surprised to see the .45-70 outperforming other, faster cartridges when it came to wind drift at intermediate ranges.

    This was new thinking 60 or 70 years ago but that was a long time ago. There's no reason for anyone to still be confused about it.

    Quoting, because this needs to be something saved for the eternity.

    I haven’t been exposed to this kind of technical knowledge since before 2007. That was at the OK state IHMSA champs
    http://military.okcgunclub.org/i/main.html
    with Jim Fields.

    Thank you.
     

    ROGER4314

    Been Called "Flash" Since I Was A Kid!
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Jul 11, 2009
    10,444
    66
    East Houston
    Good information, thank you.

    Strangely, I've never seen anyone bust a nut over wind drift, before. Hope it was good for you!...… snicker.

    Flash
     

    texanite15

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    0   0   0
    May 29, 2019
    27
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    Houston, Tx
    Id say at a 100-200 .223, .308, 6.5 are all great options. Ive always wanted a little .223 bolt. Cant go wrong with a good ole Remington 700 these days. Always been my favorite out of the box rifle. Lots of options for tactical and what not too. Id give them a look,
     

    leVieux

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    I switched Boys & I to the Remington Model 7's in .243 Winchester some 35 years ago and have never regretted it. The .243 shoots flat and hits hard enough for anything you'll encounter in Texas. Plus the recoil isn't bad and the ammo is widely available. The Mod. 7 gives the short-action Model 700 bolt action in a lighter, shorter, much more handy rifle. We have never missed those extra superfluous barrel inches, either.

    leVieux
     

    PinnedandRecessed

    Allegedly
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    30   0   0
    Feb 11, 2019
    2,778
    96
    Hays County
    I'll through my hat into the ring and suggest a Mossberg MVP Varmint in 5.56/223. I know Mossberg is not known for their rifles but this one is an underrated gem. I've used mine on Utah prairie dogs for the past 5 years. It is sub MOA and uses AR mags to boot. Also as evidenced by my other post on this forum I recently acquired a Bergara B-14 HMR in 22-250 that shoots extremely well so far. 22-250 is dead on at 200 yds.
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    DyeF9

    In Thrust We Trust
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    1   0   0
    Jan 25, 2019
    2,407
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    Red Oak TX
    .223/5.56 may be the way to go for now until I want to put some big money on a Tikka T3x TAC A1

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