San Antonio gun store owner speaks out against open carry

[Texan2]

While I would not opt for open carry- personally... The FREEDOM to do so by law abiding Americans should be allowed.

I completely agree with you!!!!
Similar to the motorcycle helmet law... you can legally ride without one. Would I call you a complete retard if you choose to do so? hmmmmm, yes.
I dont think the government needs to make everything that is stupid to participate in, illegal. but just because its legal doesn't mean it is not a stupid thing to do.

 

[Texan2]

It's an argument that the anti's commonly use when arguing against concealed or open carry - that the average person will suddenly go hog wild if in possession of a firearm in public.



I didn't know it was a rarity.


I understand this. I'm just wondering if criminals actually target folks who open carry - directly or during the commision of other crimes (such as armed robbery) - or if people OC'ing have a similar effect to the presence of a police officer and the thugs simply move on to easier targets?

yes...i know the antis use that, but i dont think that would happen with OC being passed.

I dont know if t is a rarity everywhere, but from my experience and those I know that are there, it is uncommon.

I dont know if they would target an OC civilian or not...I know that if someone is intent on committing their crime, they would target the OC civilian before anyone else. Civilians take a huge risk when they decide to OC for the purpose of disueding criminals.

 

[Blue Dog]

What it all comes down to is common sense.

Why advertise the fact that you are armed? One of two things are going to happen if a criminal wants to mess with you.
1. He will leave you alone because you are armed. He will go look else where for somebody that is not armed.
2. He will hit and he you hard before you have a chance to react because he knows that you are armed.

If people want to open carry. There should be no law to stop them.
Common sense tell me to let the criminals keep guessing.

 

[Shorts]

I don't pay for my ammo. My "uncle" does. I have an indoor range at work as well. It is not courteous to kick up lead and powder for others to inhale; it is idiotic and rude.

FYI I am from TX too. I am stationed in CA.

And, RuthsChris was just an example; it may be expensive but you aren't paying for just the steak. The service is outstanding. Again you are paying for the service. You don't pay then clean-up after yourself like at TX blunder shooting range.

Yah, I get it your military, MC or Navy. We are too. Picking up brass is as harmful as that initial firing of it. As you already said most ranges are equipped to handle a variety of ammunition. And ranges that are are also up to date enough to have a robust air filtration/venting system.


If I want to pay to be catered to, I'll take a vacation or go and pay for the nice ambiance of a high dollar restaurant, as you stated about Ruths Chris. We go out to nice places here in JP and AU for a nice outings. But going out to the range isn't really what I'd put on the 'nice night out' list. And I don't neglect courtesy anywhere. When I'm at the range, my brass gets picked up, rules or not. When I get served by a waiter at my $100 dinner, I still say thank you and leave a generous tip. Every establishment and activity has its proper courtesies. When I go to eat at a restaurant, its a given that I'll be served. When I go shoot at the range, its a given I clean up after myself. Nature of the beast.

Why advertise the fact that you are armed? One of two things are going to happen if a criminal wants to mess with you.

I went to bed last night with this question in my head. Thinking about the entire "why advertise?" argument. What I couldn't get past was that fact that I walk around, all day, every day advertising that I'm a 5'3" 110lb female target. I can't hide that. When I go out alone, I'm alone. I can't hide that.

Now of course, I can regulate to a point where I go and when I go to reduce the risks of putting myself in a hairy situation that would put a spotlight on me as a target. I guess you can apply that to CC and say that concealing when you carry is the way to reduce the risk of putting yourself in a hairy situation. Maybe carrying OC is like putting a spotlight on the target? Maybe.

But take away the gun altogether, I am still a 5'3" female target. What would a thug see when he sees me (CCing)? What would he think if he sees me OCing? Am I now a super-lucrative target? Seriously, not a rhetorical question - I wonder what I'm seen as.

I've said it before, OC depends on when and where. But the option should be mine on when and where.

 

[ST5MF]

Yah, I get it your military, MC or Navy. We are too. Picking up brass is as harmful as that initial firing of it. As you already said most ranges are equipped to handle a variety of ammunition. And ranges that are are also up to date enough to have a robust air filtration/venting system.


If I want to pay to be catered to, I'll take a vacation or go and pay for the nice ambiance of a high dollar restaurant, as you stated about Ruths Chris. We go out to nice places here in JP and AU for a nice outings. But going out to the range isn't really what I'd put on the 'nice night out' list. And I don't neglect courtesy anywhere. When I'm at the range, my brass gets picked up, rules or not. When I get served by a waiter at my $100 dinner, I still say thank you and leave a generous tip. Every establishment and activity has its proper courtesies. When I go to eat at a restaurant, its a given that I'll be served. When I go shoot at the range, its a given I clean up after myself. Nature of the beast."

Believe me, I have picked up more brass than you could possibly imagine. Not at a range that charges for its use mind you...

WTBS there is nothing more annoying than a "JACK ASS" at a public indoor range or any range pushing a broom and kicking up gun powder and lead. It is also a safety concern as they usually loose situational awareness trying to play "MAID." A well organized range will usually have employee's go police up the range when there are no shooters on the line and they provide filtered masks for clean-up to their employees; again when there are no patrons on the line. The bottom line is that I find Texas Blunders Operation Idiotic and will never step foot on this guys range because he preys on the uneducated and ill-informed.

FYI I go to a range to SHOOT; not be the MAID. Then again- I don't have the female inclination to clean everywhere I frequent either.

 

[Shorts]

Believe me, I have picked up more brass than you could possibly imagine. Not at a range that charges for its use mind you...

WTBS there is nothing more annoying than a "JACK ASS" at a public indoor range or any range pushing a broom and kicking up gun powder and lead. It is also a safety concern as they usually loose situational awareness trying to play "MAID." A well organized range will usually have employee's go police up the range when there are no shooters on the line and they provide filtered masks for clean-up to their employees; again when there are no patrons on the line. The bottom line is that I find Texas Blunders Operation Idiotic and will never step foot on this guys range because he preys on the uneducated and ill-informed.

FYI I go to a range to SHOOT; not be the MAID. Then again- I don't have the female inclination to clean everywhere I frequent either.

You raise an good point about being careful where you're roaming for clean up. Again, firing line courtesy dictates how far you venture into anyone's space. As I understand, its urinal rules. No problems there.


There's not a range that I know that doesn't charge a member for its use, public or private. And the only private "ranges" that wouldn't are ones made up of one's own/friend's property. Whether it'd be the local sportsman's club (which I'm all about) or a range in a gun shop, there are fees. Some do run promotionals were the normal fee is slashed for the night.


As already stated, you pay your money, you go where you want in regards to where you want to spend it. But complaining off the point diminishes your argument. Looks even worse when the Napoleon Complex flares up.

 

[Texan2]

"But take away the gun altogether, I am still a 5'3" female target. What would a thug see when he sees me (CCing)? What would he think if he sees me OCing? Am I now a super-lucrative target? Seriously, not a rhetorical question - I wonder what I'm seen as."

I think that there is a certain percentage that will avoid you if you are armed. But I think that you can't let that mindset enter your head. You cant think, "they wont mess with me now", which is the argument I hear all the time for OC.
If someone wants to do it....fine. I have yet to hear a valid reason to do it, or a situation that CC would not be a vastly better option.
OC allows the bad guy to size up the situation before you even know he is there....CC does the very opposite.

The govt shouldnt tell us we cant OC.....we as intellegent gun owners should opt to not do it.

 

[Shorts]

I think that there is a certain percentage that will avoid you if you are armed. But I think that you can't let that mindset enter your head. You cant think, "they wont mess with me now", which is the argument I hear all the time for OC.
If someone wants to do it....fine. I have yet to hear a valid reason to do it, or a situation that CC would not be a vastly better option.
OC allows the bad guy to size up the situation before you even know he is there....CC does the very opposite.

The govt shouldnt tell us we cant OC.....we as intellegent gun owners should opt to not do it.

Really? I didn't think so. OCers are just as, should I say, should be just as vigilant of their surroundings as OCers. Couldn't you make the same argument that CCers are relaxed in their situational awareness because they perceive no attention based on the visibility, or lack there of, of the firearm?? Or I could go completely opposite and say that I'm even more aware of my surroundings when I am 'naked' and not carrying any means of protection. Which actually has been my experience, and its not very comfortable to know I'm on my own when I detect potential threats. Maybe the knowledge of not having my "upper hand" unsettles me.

I agree with your point about situational awareness. It is important, carrying or not. But to paint OCers as dismissive of their situations isn't completely fair and likely not accurate.

So where is the line drawn? Is situational awareness subjective? I think yes. For example, your levels of awareness, based on your profession and training, will be more acute than mine. But, I think anyone who takes an active role and seeks means of self defense is shades ahead over those who don't (lovingly referred to as the sheep).


CC vs OC, I've given answers to that where the practicality would be "better" if I was OCing. But I don't ignore that with CC a person will very likely retain the option of getting involved in a particular situation than an OCer. Overall, that's going to heavily depend on the bad guy Is he that desperate? Is he really stupid?? etc etc..

 

[ST5MF]

You raise an good point about being careful where you're roaming for clean up. Again, firing line courtesy dictates how far you venture into anyone's space. As I understand, its urinal rules. No problems there.


There's not a range that I know that doesn't charge a member for its use, public or private. And the only private "ranges" that wouldn't are ones made up of one's own/friend's property. Whether it'd be the local sportsman's club (which I'm all about) or a range in a gun shop, there are fees. Some do run promotionals were the normal fee is slashed for the night.


As already stated, you pay your money, you go where you want in regards to where you want to spend it. But complaining off the point diminishes your argument. Looks even worse when the Napoleon Complex flares up.

FYI I don't pay to use Military Ranges and I do clean up there.

BTW at 5'10" I am certainly not a tall man- but napolean? Coming from someone who is 5'3" and insists that everyone be anal retentative about cleaning because they are a good mannered Texan is funny to say the least!

 

[Blue Dog]

I don't think shorts was talking about your height.

 

[blazer]

Bought a gun there a long time ago. looked at the range. too expensive. with the sudden rush of CHL apps. He's probably cleaning up. I met him once. not really impressed.

I like the bullit hole on the west side of SA for shooting, but now getting too crowded. Also, Dury's is a nice gun shop. not the cheapest, but I think that they are charging what they think is fair to run a reputable business.

just my two cents

 

[ST5MF]

Bought a gun there a long time ago. looked at the range. too expensive. with the sudden rush of CHL apps. He's probably cleaning up. I met him once. not really impressed.

I like the bullit hole on the west side of SA for shooting, but now getting too crowded. Also, Dury's is a nice gun shop. not the cheapest, but I think that they are charging what they think is fair to run a reputable business.

just my two cents

Dury's is the best gun shop in S.Texas. Best selection with fair market prices. They don't try to take advantage of the un-educated and non-informed; and the whole Dury Family is a great bunch of folks.

I used to go to the "Bullet Hole" back in the day. It was a really run down place in the late 80's into the 90's. I have heard that Mr. Hester has passed and his daughter now runs the range. Haven't been there in years...

The TX Blunder Range/TX Guns is bar non a "RIP-OFF" and probably stays in business because it is so close to the burbs off Bandera Rd; and the people in those parts haven't a clue they are taking it up the rear from this McCall guy. It is really sad that someone would prey on people like he does... But I guess education is the key as usual. If his patrons had a clue of the market they would probably feel really cheated by this individual.

I bet he charges twice the market on the ammo you HAVE to use at his range too... If so, this guy truly is a SCUMBAG!

 

[ST5MF]

I don't think shorts was talking about your height.

Glad you are entertained. Must be hard to not have a life...

 

[Furyataurus]

Whether or not you open carry or conceal carry if you're not aware of your surrounding(s) then its YOUR fault for anything that happens to you or anyone else. When I'm at a gas station whenever someone enters I'm always looking at "who" enters no matter what and I always "check" out the place before I go to the register.

 

[Blue Dog]

Glad you are entertained. Must be hard to not have a life...

 

[djspump2003]

I also find it hard to believe that this guy is still in business with those rules. I would boycott a place with his prices and requirements as well. Why would someone want to spend that kind of money to shoot? I really only know a few reloaders, myself included, and always ask why in God's name would you pay $10+ for a box of 50 9mm FMJs that I can make for $3? Why would anyone pay $30+ for a box of 168g BTHP Match bullets when I can make them for $8? I wouldn't shoot if I didn't reload, but that's just me. Maybe that is the answer to how someone like that does stay in business. Most of these guys are in it just to make money, and a lot of times that means taking advantage of people. If the range master is competent enough to be in charge of the range, then they should also be competent enough (while inventorying your range bag) to look at the bullets you bring in to determine that they are not tracers or AP. I do understand not wanting FMJ rifle bullets (HPs excluded of course) if you are worried about some AP bullets slipping through and your backstops aren't certified for that (if any are).

I still don't know how I feel about OC even after reading these 4 pages of this thread and thinking about it some on my own. It is just my experience that EVERYTIME you gun up, you should keep a heightened sense of situational awareness. I still remember my CO telling us to "keep our heads on a swivel." I guess it stuck with me, along with the "pan and scan." I probably wouldn't OC because I don't like to be noticed in the first place. I would also support it only because I just don't want to agree with the antis on anything.

And oh yeah, screw Zumbo with his high and mighty self.

 

[Texas1911]

I think everyone has had their say.