Shooting fees at a Private Club

[K80RT]

Hopefully this is on the right forum. I belong to and on the board of a private gun club(non-profit, membership owned)w We have skeet, 5-stand, trap, pistol, and rifle ranges(all outdoor). We load our own houses and do our own trapping. We have CREP income and farm income. No debt at all. Small general club house that holds about 70 with a kitchen and a cook that comes in 2 times a week. We have a girl who man's a desk answering the phone, selling Briley tokens for the fields that use those and cash payments for rounds. Another member picks up food and is paid for that. All are paid $18/hr up from $8/hr prior to the pandemic. Membership has grown from 450 to 650 over the last 2 years. Members pay $3/day for rifle and pistol and $3/25 targets at the clay disciplines. Sounds great right! We are caught up on maintenance and could upgrade the clubhouse which there is some pressure to do so. The club is pretty heavy on skeet participation, with trap second along with pistol and rifle, and 5- stand with the least participation. There is pressure from the pistol , rifle, and 5-stand group to raise shooting fees to $4 to fund the increase in wages. At this time we have $2.13 cost per 25 bird round. So $.87 goes to the general fund over and above. This group was pushing this prior to wage increases. We have members who shoot 1000 rds of skeet per year and probably many who shoot 500-700/year. 5- stand no one shoots more than 50/year. I strongly think the club has no financial issues at all even with the wage increases. We have $40K in reserve. We have tried over and over to convince these people a $1 increase would put more burden on a one group on an item already in the black. They point to other clubs who charge $4-6/ rd nearby. Those clubs do not have the income we have, nor the volunteers, or forbearers who made very wise decisions. This is the same club that had no control of spending 5 years ago until we got a strong leader (who is my mentor). He is now off the board, but the spenders keep coming at us. Wages and capital expenditures need to come from dues not shooting cost. We are a shooting club.
Any folks out there with club leadership have any ideas or other clubs to talk to about our situation. Sometimes when it seems great it still is not. Thanks!

 

[Axxe55]

Welcome to TGT.

Stop over in the Intro Section and say hello to everyone when you get a chance.

 

[Vaquero]

Interesting topic.
Subbed.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

Welcome to the Forum!

 

[msharley]

Hopefully this is on the right forum. I belong to and on the board of a private gun club(non-profit, membership owned)w We have skeet, 5-stand, trap, pistol, and rifle ranges(all outdoor). We load our own houses and do our own trapping. We have CREP income and farm income. No debt at all. Small general club house that holds about 70 with a kitchen and a cook that comes in 2 times a week. We have a girl who man's a desk answering the phone, selling Briley tokens for the fields that use those and cash payments for rounds. Another member picks up food and is paid for that. All are paid $18/hr up from $8/hr prior to the pandemic. Membership has grown from 450 to 650 over the last 2 years. Members pay $3/day for rifle and pistol and $3/25 targets at the clay disciplines. Sounds great right! We are caught up on maintenance and could upgrade the clubhouse which there is some pressure to do so. The club is pretty heavy on skeet participation, with trap second along with pistol and rifle, and 5- stand with the least participation. There is pressure from the pistol , rifle, and 5-stand group to raise shooting fees to $4 to fund the increase in wages. At this time we have $2.13 cost per 25 bird round. So $.87 goes to the general fund over and above. This group was pushing this prior to wage increases. We have members who shoot 1000 rds of skeet per year and probably many who shoot 500-700/year. 5- stand no one shoots more than 50/year. I strongly think the club has no financial issues at all even with the wage increases. We have $40K in reserve. We have tried over and over to convince these people a $1 increase would put more burden on a one group on an item already in the black. They point to other clubs who charge $4-6/ rd nearby. Those clubs do not have the income we have, nor the volunteers, or forbearers who made very wise decisions. This is the same club that had no control of spending 5 years ago until we got a strong leader (who is my mentor). He is now off the board, but the spenders keep coming at us. Wages and capital expenditures need to come from dues not shooting cost. We are a shooting club.
Any folks out there with club leadership have any ideas or other clubs to talk to about our situation. Sometimes when it seems great it still is not. Thanks!

Hey K,

Welcome to TGT.

As a past Pres. of a Pennsylvania Club that was active in Trap & Skeet...(still are)...

$3/round for Skeet & Trap?

That was our fee in the '90's......

A doubles Trap Machine was $7,000 in the '90's.

A Skeet Machine was $1,700 for a "rebuilt" job....

Then there were the light bills, for the Trap & Skeet Range Winter League (doubles Trap & Skeet, under the lights)...

We had to replace a Trap Machine on average? About every 18 months....

The Skeet Machines? About every 6 months....one of them needed a new "rebuild" job...

And all of our "help" was volunteer.

Do with this info, what you will...

Later, Mark

 

[toddnjoyce]

…Any folks out there with club leadership have any ideas or other clubs to talk to about our situation. Sometimes when it seems great it still is not. Thanks!

I sit on a board for a 501c3 that owns a plane and we’ve had a similar discussion recently.

Setting aside all your details, income needs to meet expenses + reserves for maintenance and capitol improvements. A rolling 3-5 year plan that constantly looks back at expenses and forward for projects is important so members aren’t squabbling about crap like this.

There’s a million ways to generate income. What I’ve learned is that it doesn’t matter what competing operations charge since they have to turn a profit; what we charge has to keep us alive as an organization.

What I’ve also learned is you can’t make everyone happy all the time, but it pays to listen with empathy knowing some things are folks just venting while others have a really good idea that needs to be actioned. And don’t take anything personal.

 

[K80RT]

Hey K,

Welcome to TGT.

As a past Pres. of a Pennsylvania Club that was active in Trap & Skeet...(still are)...

$3/round for Skeet & Trap?

That was our fee in the '90's......

A doubles Trap Machine was $7,000 in the '90's.

A Skeet Machine was $1,700 for a "rebuilt" job....

Then there were the light bills, for the Trap & Skeet Range Winter League (doubles Trap & Skeet, under the lights)...

We had to replace a Trap Machine on average? About every 18 months....

The Skeet Machines? About every 6 months....one of them needed a new "rebuild" job...

And all of our "help" was volunteer.

Do with this info, what you will...

Later, Mark

Thanks. Our skeet members raisedenough money among themselves I n one weekend to buy 6 fields of new Lincolns 5 years ago.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

 

[Vaquero]

Maybe compromise.
Raise it to 3.50 and raise the fees on the vocal group by 0.50.

Probably a lead ballon, but I think it'll, get the point across.

 

[K80RT]

Hey K,

Welcome to TGT.

As a past Pres. of a Pennsylvania Club that was active in Trap & Skeet...(still are)...

$3/round for Skeet & Trap?

That was our fee in the '90's......

A doubles Trap Machine was $7,000 in the '90's.

A Skeet Machine was $1,700 for a "rebuilt" job....

Then there were the light bills, for the Trap & Skeet Range Winter League (doubles Trap & Skeet, under the lights)...

We had to replace a Trap Machine on average? About every 18 months....

The Skeet Machines? About every 6 months....one of them needed a new "rebuild" job...

And all of our "help" was volunteer.

Do with this info, what you will...

Later, Mark

And we have spent maybe $400 on the Lincilns since. Nice machines. Not to mention skeet raises $16k in shoots last year. Big year. Usually about 7

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

 

[msharley]

Hey K,

Due to work scheduling changes, and moving.....I have not been back in 20yrs....

I know they are still very active and even host a Levergun Silhouette Monthly Match...

I just can not imagine the same $3/rd fee.........20 some years later! With PAID help!

Our taxes were low. The light bill was a KILLER!....

I think? They are involved in one Skeet League and two Trap Leagues. These Teams travel to differing Host Clubs on a "Rotational" basis in the Greater Pittsburgh Area.

And they Hosted events when it was their turn...

We got two trailer loads of clay pigeons/year. Each load was about $7,000?

Just budget your Club so if TWO machines break in the same month...you can still be in business.

We had that happen when we were scheduled to host the Area Championships....Someone drove to Ohio with a $7,000 check for a Trap Machine. We had a spare Skeet thrower (remember the old Winchesters?)

Later, Mark

 

[K80RT]

I sit on a board for a 501c3 that owns a plane and we’ve had a similar discussion recently.

Setting aside all your details, income needs to meet expenses + reserves for maintenance and capitol improvements. A rolling 3-5 year plan that constantly looks back at expenses and forward for projects is important so members aren’t squabbling about crap like this.

There’s a million ways to generate income. What I’ve learned is that it doesn’t matter what competing operations charge since they have to turn a profit; what we charge has to keep us alive as an organization.

What I’ve also learned is you can’t make everyone happy all the time, but it pays to listen with empathy knowing some things are folks just venting while others have a really good idea that needs to be actioned. And don’t take anything personal.

We generate income well. We have a 3 and 5 year capital budgets. With a freeze on now to raise reserves in case we renovate or build s new building. Spending was a real problem that has been reigned by any spenfing requires board approval with 3 bids minimum.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

 

[K80RT]

Hey K,

Due to work scheduling changes, and moving.....I have not been back in 20yrs....

I know they are still very active and even host a Levergun Silhouette Monthly Match...

I just can not imagine the same $3/rd fee.........20 some years later! With PAID help!

Our taxes were low. The light bill was a KILLER!....

I think? They are involved in one Skeet League and two Trap Leagues. These Teams travel to differing Host Clubs on a "Rotational" basis in the Greater Pittsburgh Area.

And they Hosted events when it was their turn...

We got two trailer loads of clay pigeons/year. Each load was about $7,000?

Just budget your Club so if TWO machines break in the same month...you can still be in business.

We had that happen when we were scheduled to host the Area Championships....Someone drove to Ohio with a $7,000 check for a Trap Machine. We had a spare Skeet thrower (remember the old Winchesters?)

Later, Mark

Were the trailer loads on a short truck. We get 24 pallets for 16k. Got married in Gettysburg to a Pittsburgh girl.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

 

[msharley]

I'm thinking? A 28' trailer? Have no idea on the pallets. We got components at the same time.

We had an off road fork truck for the unloading.

Ah! A Pittsburgh Lady! Good for you!

 

[K80RT]

I'm thinking? A 28' trailer? Have no idea on the pallets. We got components at the same time.

We had an off road fork truck for the unloading.

Ah! A Pittsburgh Lady! Good for you!

Full semi 2xs a year except last 3 because of a big shoot.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

 

[toddnjoyce]

We generate income well. We have a 3 and 5 year capital budgets. With a freeze on now to raise reserves in case we renovate or build s new building. Spending was a real problem that has been reigned by any spenfing requires board approval with 3 bids minimum.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

Stop. You came here with a question about generating income (dues).

If the club generates income to cover operating expenses plus capital reserve requirements then you have no need to increase revenue EXCEPT to account for increased costs, such as an increase in the cost of birds.

Poor or non-existent expense management is a separate problem you cannot earn your way out of. You have operating expenses and you have G&A expenses. It sounds like policies are now being enforced to control some costs, which is encouraging. That has to extend to all expense accounts, not just capital expenditures….G&A, I’m looking at you. Paying workers $18/hr sure sounds like some people are turning the club into their piggy bank.

 

[K80RT]

Stop. You came here with a question about generating income (dues).

If the club generates income to cover operating expenses plus capital reserve requirements then you have no need to increase revenue EXCEPT to account for increased costs, such as an increase in the cost of birds.

Poor or non-existent expense management is a separate problem you cannot earn your way out of. You have operating expenses and you have G&A expenses. It sounds like policies are now being enforced to control some costs, which is encouraging. That has to extend to all expense accounts, not just capital expenditures….G&A, I’m looking at you. Paying workers $18/hr sure sounds like some people are turning the club into their piggy bank.

Not sure you are aware of the labor market now. We competed with unemployment paying the equivalent of $16/hr.
We do not have a revenue problem. We have a cost accounting issue and club philosophy issue. We are a shooting club and should promote shooting not put up barriers to shooting. We have $.87 margin on targets per round. We could replace 1.5 machines per load. Dues should cover overhead and capital expenditures to grounds and clubhouse.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

 

[toddnjoyce]

Not sure you are aware of the labor market now.

My day job is HR for an F100 company, I’m well aware of the labor market. You hit the nail on the head that it’s a club philosophy problem. We had to turn over more than half our membership about four years ago when we went through a similar change in philosophies.

You stated increased revenue is required to offset the cost of increased wages. Labor is a fixed expense that can be a peanut butter spread across all members as the assets would not be available to any member if labor is not there to operate it. You can also raise revenue on a per use basis where the those who use it the most pay for it the most. The problem with the former is it’s patently unfair to charge everyone a base rate whether they take advantage of the asset or not, and the latter is that you’re planning to pay for a fixed expense with a variable revenue stream. Alternatively, you can adjust the size of the labor force, hours of operations, or require voluntary labor contributions as a condition of membership, which nobody ever wants to enforce so it usually ends up being an either-or where if someone doesn’t make their labor commitment they receive an assessment and failure to pay is grounds for loss of membership privileges either with or without a grace period and any future application for membership is dependent on past debts paid in full.

 

[Byrd666]

...

 

[K80RT]

My day job is HR for an F100 company, I’m well aware of the labor market. You hit the nail on the head that it’s a club philosophy problem. We had to turn over more than half our membership about four years ago when we went through a similar change in philosophies.

You stated increased revenue is required to offset the cost of increased wages. Labor is a fixed expense that can be a peanut butter spread across all members as the assets would not be available to any member if labor is not there to operate it. You can also raise revenue on a per use basis where the those who use it the most pay for it the most. The problem with the former is it’s patently unfair to charge everyone a base rate whether they take advantage of the asset or not, and the latter is that you’re planning to pay for a fixed expense with a variable revenue stream. Alternatively, you can adjust the size of the labor force, hours of operations, or require voluntary labor contributions as a condition of membership, which nobody ever wants to enforce so it usually ends up being an either-or where if someone doesn’t make their labor commitment they receive an assessment and failure to pay is grounds for loss of membership privileges either with or without a grace period and any future application for membership is dependent on past debts paid in full.

You stated increased revenue is required to offset the cost of increased wages.

We have plenty of revenue. The group shooting 50 rds a year point to the wage increase as the need even though we have increased reserves in the face of increased wages. They have no issue in spending another groups money for capital projects for the club whole.

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[mroper]

Not sure if your club has thought about this but the ranges might need Lead abatement one day