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shotgun in vehicle laws
- Thread starter Dusty Rivers
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School Zones....
The ONLY trouble that I've had with the open carry of rifles in a vehicle is in CLEBURNE, TX. In 2 separate occasions, about 5 months apart, I was stopped for an alleged offense (traffic ticket never issued, by the way). On the first stop, I asked to exit my vehicle so I could better access my DL and insurance. The "police officer" (a term which I use advisedly), upon seeing my rifle said, "Yes, please DO step out of the vehicle.", and proceeded to pat me down for weapons. Called for back up, asked me to sit on the pavement (this is mid afternoon, mid May, so it's hot out there, folks), and commenced to run my license for ANY offense dating as far back as he could. I'm STILL not clear if he thought me implicatable on that "grassy knoll" business.
I was at no time discourteous, abrasive, or impolite to the officer. He asked if I could search my vehicle. Ordinarily, I decline, since it's none of their business what's in my vehicle. In this case, I was on my way to a date with a rather promising young lady, so I told them that if it would get me on my way sooner, they could procede. Nothing found.
Five months later, I was stopped within 50 feet of my parents' house at about midnight, returning from a date(NOT with the same young lady, I'm sorry to add). One officer approaches on the driver's side (my hands are on the steering wheel until he tells me what to do) and asks for my license. I start looking for it. Another officer approaches on the passenger side. After about 1/2 a minute, he says, "Keep your hands up, please." I said "Okee doke", still searching for the license in the winshield visor. He repeated, verbatim, the previous command, and I said, "My hands are up, officer, I have no intention of dropping them out of sight. What exactly is the problem?"
He tells the officer closest to me that I have a rifle in the van. The officer closest to me pulls his pistol, points it at me, and tells me to exit the van. I did, and was handcuffed, and again examined with only slightly less scrutiny than that requiring a professional healthcare provider, an examining table, and plastic gloves.
After sitting in a cramped, hot police vehicle for nearly an hour, I asked them what the problem was. One of them told me I was going to jail. When I asked what for, this particular genius said "Possession of a Firearm in a School Zone." It is true that I HAD passed within 1000 feet of a school zone enroute to the house. It is ALSO true that it was 11:53 pm on a Saturday night in a quiet residential part of a small town.
I'm guessing they realized how ridiculous such a charge would be, so they uncuffed me, took my rifle(in this case a Mini-14), towed my vehicle (no proof of insurance, they said. It was dropped when I presented said proof to municipal court), after turning the van upside down inside trying to find something wrong with it, and let me walk home. I was told I could get my rifle back "after you chat with one of our investigators".
I filed a formal letter of complaint, whereupon it was investigated by IA, and it was recommended that all fees incurred be reimbursed. I hired an attorney to inquire of WHY I needed to talk to ANYONE before I get my property back. The watch commander seeemed to think that my "chatting with someone" wouldn't be all that necessary, and I could get my property back whenever the property officer was in.
I APPEARS that the law about firearms in school zones is all but unenforceable. There are private residences less than 100 feet from this and other schools that are FILLED with firearms, alcohol, and (I would bet) all sorts of other "dangerous materials". If I understand correctly, the "Castle" doctrine regards my vehicle in somewhat the same way it regards me private residence. During deer season, I don't think a hunter who lives in town can get to his lease without getting within 1000 feet of a school zone at one point or another. The list of flaws is longer than I have time for. BUT THERE CAN BE A GREAT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT THE LAW STATES AND WHAT AN OFFICER MIGHT ARREST YOU FOR! You won't be able to make the distinction clear until much time, money, and aggravation has come and gone.
But PLEASE BE AWARE OF CLEBURNE, TX AND ITS POLICE DEPARTMENT, as well as other small towns, where the officers who work therein may be of "other than metropolitan class" training and skill. Johnson County, TX is already under considerable scrutiny for things which have gone wrong with incarcerees, and for "questionable" arrests and prosecutions thereof.
There's a free weekly called "FORT WORTH WEEKLY" which has chronicled this chain of events for quite a while. Ordinarily, I don't put much stock into the articles found in papers like these, but this author (Peter Gordon?) has it correct. I had my doubts until I queried other folks with whom I grew up in this county. They have no reason to lie to me, and all but one had had no trouble THEMSELVES with the law enforcement community. But they were witness to numerous incidents. The catch pharase for Johnson County, which is proximal to numerous lakes and recreational areas, is "Come on Vacation, LEAVE ON PROBATION."
Watch the small towns, folks. They're not ALL friendly.
ADDENDUM: The original question was about shotguns in vehicles. It is true that I wasn't carrying a shotgun, but I was carrying a shoulder-fired firearm, nonetheless. I doubt that I would have been treated any better had I been carrying an 870 Wingmaster, nor any worse, had I been carrying SPAS-12.
At no time during or after either incident was I charged with ANY crime (excluding lack of proof of insurance), firearm involved, or otherwise. I am not a CHL holder, but that's about to change.
I am not generally a fan of activist attorneys who seem to go out of their way to construct obstacles to law enforcement's latitudes of arrest and detention. But that's about to change.
I have a certain amount of sympathy for a police officer walking up on a vehicle during a traffic stop on a dark night. They don't know whether they've just stopped Charles Manson or Jeff Foxworthy, in terms of presenting a danger to them. It's why I make it a point to keep my hands where they can see them and not move them until they tell me. But once it was discovered that MY personal demeanor was MUCH closer to the "Jeff Foxworthy" end of the spectrum than that of Manson, it was at THAT point that they began applying the screws. It is my considered opinion that, if I hadn't been a white man, living in a middle class neighborhood, I would likely have taken a beating.
The ONLY trouble that I've had with the open carry of rifles in a vehicle is in CLEBURNE, TX. In 2 separate occasions, about 5 months apart, I was stopped for an alleged offense (traffic ticket never issued, by the way). On the first stop, I asked to exit my vehicle so I could better access my DL and insurance. The "police officer" (a term which I use advisedly), upon seeing my rifle said, "Yes, please DO step out of the vehicle.", and proceeded to pat me down for weapons. Called for back up, asked me to sit on the pavement (this is mid afternoon, mid May, so it's hot out there, folks), and commenced to run my license for ANY offense dating as far back as he could. I'm STILL not clear if he thought me implicatable on that "grassy knoll" business.
I was at no time discourteous, abrasive, or impolite to the officer. He asked if I could search my vehicle. Ordinarily, I decline, since it's none of their business what's in my vehicle. In this case, I was on my way to a date with a rather promising young lady, so I told them that if it would get me on my way sooner, they could procede. Nothing found.
Five months later, I was stopped within 50 feet of my parents' house at about midnight, returning from a date(NOT with the same young lady, I'm sorry to add). One officer approaches on the driver's side (my hands are on the steering wheel until he tells me what to do) and asks for my license. I start looking for it. Another officer approaches on the passenger side. After about 1/2 a minute, he says, "Keep your hands up, please." I said "Okee doke", still searching for the license in the winshield visor. He repeated, verbatim, the previous command, and I said, "My hands are up, officer, I have no intention of dropping them out of sight. What exactly is the problem?"
He tells the officer closest to me that I have a rifle in the van.
The officer closest to me pulls his pistol, points it at me, and tells me to exit the van. I did, and was handcuffed, and again examined with only slightly less scrutiny than that requiring a professional healthcare provider, an examining table, and plastic gloves.After sitting in a cramped, hot police vehicle for nearly an hour, I asked them what the problem was. One of them told me I was going to jail. When I asked what for, this particular genius said "Possession of a Firearm in a School Zone." It is true that I HAD passed within 1000 feet of a school zone enroute to the house. It is ALSO true that it was 11:53 pm on a Saturday night in a quiet residential part of a small town.
I'm guessing they realized how ridiculous such a charge would be, so they uncuffed me, took my rifle(in this case a Mini-14), towed my vehicle (no proof of insurance, they said. It was dropped when I presented said proof to municipal court), after turning the van upside down inside trying to find something wrong with it, and let me walk home. I was told I could get my rifle back "after you chat with one of our investigators".
I filed a formal letter of complaint, whereupon it was investigated by IA, and it was recommended that all fees incurred be reimbursed. I hired an attorney to inquire of WHY I needed to talk to ANYONE before I get my property back. The watch commander seeemed to think that my "chatting with someone" wouldn't be all that necessary, and I could get my property back whenever the property officer was in.
I APPEARS that the law about firearms in school zones is all but unenforceable. There are private residences less than 100 feet from this and other schools that are FILLED with firearms, alcohol, and (I would bet) all sorts of other "dangerous materials". If I understand correctly, the "Castle" doctrine regards my vehicle in somewhat the same way it regards me private residence. During deer season, I don't think a hunter who lives in town can get to his lease without getting within 1000 feet of a school zone at one point or another. The list of flaws is longer than I have time for. BUT THERE CAN BE A GREAT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT THE LAW STATES AND WHAT AN OFFICER MIGHT ARREST YOU FOR! You won't be able to make the distinction clear until much time, money, and aggravation has come and gone.
But PLEASE BE AWARE OF CLEBURNE, TX AND ITS POLICE DEPARTMENT, as well as other small towns, where the officers who work therein may be of "other than metropolitan class" training and skill. Johnson County, TX is already under considerable scrutiny for things which have gone wrong with incarcerees, and for "questionable" arrests and prosecutions thereof.
There's a free weekly called "FORT WORTH WEEKLY" which has chronicled this chain of events for quite a while. Ordinarily, I don't put much stock into the articles found in papers like these, but this author (Peter Gordon?) has it correct. I had my doubts until I queried other folks with whom I grew up in this county. They have no reason to lie to me, and all but one had had no trouble THEMSELVES with the law enforcement community. But they were witness to numerous incidents. The catch pharase for Johnson County, which is proximal to numerous lakes and recreational areas, is "Come on Vacation, LEAVE ON PROBATION."
Watch the small towns, folks. They're not ALL friendly.
ADDENDUM: The original question was about shotguns in vehicles. It is true that I wasn't carrying a shotgun, but I was carrying a shoulder-fired firearm, nonetheless. I doubt that I would have been treated any better had I been carrying an 870 Wingmaster, nor any worse, had I been carrying SPAS-12.
At no time during or after either incident was I charged with ANY crime (excluding lack of proof of insurance), firearm involved, or otherwise. I am not a CHL holder, but that's about to change.
I am not generally a fan of activist attorneys who seem to go out of their way to construct obstacles to law enforcement's latitudes of arrest and detention. But that's about to change.
I have a certain amount of sympathy for a police officer walking up on a vehicle during a traffic stop on a dark night. They don't know whether they've just stopped Charles Manson or Jeff Foxworthy, in terms of presenting a danger to them. It's why I make it a point to keep my hands where they can see them and not move them until they tell me. But once it was discovered that MY personal demeanor was MUCH closer to the "Jeff Foxworthy" end of the spectrum than that of Manson, it was at THAT point that they began applying the screws. It is my considered opinion that, if I hadn't been a white man, living in a middle class neighborhood, I would likely have taken a beating.
txinvestigator
TGT Addict
There is no state law regarding possessing a firearm within 1000 feet of schools. There is a federal law, but it has exceptions and is not enforceable by LEOs who are not Federal LEOs.
Taking your side of the events as 100% you should file a complaint with the Texas Rangers for a violation of Texas law, and you should file a lawsuit in federal court for the violation of your civil rights.
Please let us know when you do.
Absolutely!!!!
Also, not flipping sides, but thinking from both sides, think about what some of these small towns near DFW deal with? How many meth labs are out in the country? How many true criminal dead-beats and just plain looney, strung out whack jobs are the sharing the streets with.
However, being careful and going over the top as well as BSing you are different.
Not to go off topic, but the only time I was stopped by an LEO in Cleburne was when I was on my motorcycle. Well, technically I was not stopped. My wife was stopped and we were riding together, so I stopped also. He checked her out thoroughly. Our bikes are perfectly legal, quiet, and inspected. We ALWAYS obey the traffic laws. We are older (she is 47, and I am 52) and don't look like trouble makers. We wear full face helmets and motorcycle body armor. It was the middle of the day and I could not figure out why we were stopped??? The police officer was not interested in talking to me and would only talk to my wife. He was obviously looking for something illegal, but found nothing. He kept my wife there (and me, although he said I should leave) for at least 30 minutes. Most of the time he spent doing something in his car. Not sure what though. I was not going to leave my wife there. We were traveling together. We were quite confused as to why she was stopped and why he held her so long. We didn't complain and were always polite. Though I obviously irritated him when I didn't leave when he told me too. I was parked in a store parking lot next to my wife where he stopped us. He finally told her that she had an illegal tail light. He said it could not be flashing. Well, it did not flash. It was constantly on, but rotated to be more visible to traffic. Why did I put this light on her motorcycle? A Texas DPS officer recommended for me to do this. He had one on his personal motorcycle and said it was perfectly legal. She did not get a ticket, but got a warning.
What does this female outlaw biker look like to attract the attention of this Cleburne police officer? Here is a picture of her on her bike with my son on the back.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h25/Chaos_l2eaper/miscpics171.jpg
A real outlaw, don't you think?
I guess he was having a boring day. Either that, or he didn't know the law. For the public's sake, I hope he was just haveing a boring day.
What does this female outlaw biker look like to attract the attention of this Cleburne police officer? Here is a picture of her on her bike with my son on the back.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h25/Chaos_l2eaper/miscpics171.jpg
A real outlaw, don't you think?
I guess he was having a boring day. Either that, or he didn't know the law. For the public's sake, I hope he was just haveing a boring day.
txinvestigator
TGT Addict
There is no need for a person to be an "outlaw" to be stopped for a traffic violation.
Section 547.305 of the Trasnportation Code makes it illegal to diaplay a red, white, or blue beacon, flashing, or alternating light unless specifically authorized.
Turns signals are authorized to flash, stop lamps are not. Seems he did know the law.
Section 547.305 of the Trasnportation Code makes it illegal to diaplay a red, white, or blue beacon, flashing, or alternating light unless specifically authorized.
Turns signals are authorized to flash, stop lamps are not. Seems he did know the law.
Could you explain this a little further please?
The relevant portion of the code reads:
On my last bike the tail lamp and brake light were one and the same. So, according to what I just read, it very well can flash, but I have been known to be wrong from time to time.
I'm not trying to flame or pick a fight. I would just like to better understand this, because the way I read it a flashing and/or rotating brake light on a motorcycle is good to go. I will stop considering one for my next bike if someone can ultimately prove they are, in fact, illegal.
What does this female outlaw biker look like to attract the attention of this Cleburne police officer? Here is a picture of her on her bike with my son on the back.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h25/Chaos_l2eaper/miscpics171.jpg
A real outlaw, don't you think?
I guess he was having a boring day. Either that, or he didn't know the law. For the public's sake, I hope he was just haveing a boring day.
Well, I feel safer going through Cleburne, knowing it's not a haven for tail light scofflaws! It's well known to be the just first step towards jaywalking!
Some cops just don't like bikers (I've been personally roughed up by the City of Denver's {Colorado} "finest" for nothing more). Probably his domestic partner left him for a bike-riding lady.
First, it was not flashing, it was rotating but constantly on. Second, a Texas Highway Patrol Officer (in uniform at a motorcycle shop) suggested that I purchase one for my motorcycle. He said that it was a legal tail light for a motorcycle and that he has one on his personal bike. Sooooo, either the Cleburne officer was wrong or the DPS officer was wrong. I don't know. I do know that I immediately changed the bulb to a standard bulb and haven't used it since. I could care less about the bulb, it was the Cleburne officers unusual behavior that alarmed me. He obviously didn't want me around while dealing with my wife. Why? Beats the heck out of me! It was the middle of the day with many people around.
I didn't write this to anger LEO's on this forum or create an argument. I just thought I would add my experience (my wife's) with a Cleburne officer. I could go into detail on his unusual behavior, (there is MUCH more) but I am afraid that I would just stir some of you up. This happened about five years ago and I have discussed this with many other LEO's. When I described to them his behavior in detail, they also thought it was odd. Also, I was a past employer of a Deputy for the Johnson Co. Sheriffs department. She knew the officer who stopped my wife and stated she did not like him at all. She would not go into detail on the subject. The last I heard, he doesn't work for Cleburne any more.
I will say nothing more on the subject. Again, I went off topic. Sorry
txinvestigator
TGT Addict
A beacon is what you describe. It is not legal under the Transportation Code. I suggest the Trooper was wrong, or whoever heard it from him is mistaken. Those red lights that lots of police cars have on then don't flash, they stay on and rotate. You think you can have one of those on your car?
Because you are another area of concern for him, and a potential threat to him. Cops are assaulted in the daytime all of the time.
Many people have a problem with any authority, and take the anoynimity of the internet as open season to complain about everything cops do. For the record, I am not currently a cop, but a former one with a decade of service. I know from being on both sides of the badge that there are three sides to every story, yours, the cops and the truth. Since the cop is not here, he gets my benefit of the doubt. Until you have been a cop and understood the issues they deal with, complaints like yours just really mean nothing.
As a former LEO, I am very critical of poor or illegal behavior on their part. In fact, in this thread I gave a yong man advice to seek legal action against officers who, if his versions of events are 100% true, should be held accountable.
txinvestigator and drbart2,
You are speaking around each other from what I can tell. txinvest (sorry for the abr) you are obviously referring to emergency or warning lights used by LE and FD to negotiate traffic or pull someone over while if you read the post by drbart2 he is referring to a high visibility taillight designed to be used in the existing tail lamp location as a direct replacement bulb (from what I gather from the post and what I know of auto parts) not a rotating beacon as you have in mind. It is essentially the same as the flashing 3rd brakelight on a Cadillac, meant to be an attention getter. By the reading of the law these are legal. What is illegal is emergency services style warning lights whether they are dash mounted, roof mounted or hidden away in the headlights. But from the post that is not what drbart2 is describing. Hope I haven't complicated things worse but that is how I read it. Forgive me if I'm wrong.
You are speaking around each other from what I can tell. txinvest (sorry for the abr) you are obviously referring to emergency or warning lights used by LE and FD to negotiate traffic or pull someone over while if you read the post by drbart2 he is referring to a high visibility taillight designed to be used in the existing tail lamp location as a direct replacement bulb (from what I gather from the post and what I know of auto parts) not a rotating beacon as you have in mind. It is essentially the same as the flashing 3rd brakelight on a Cadillac, meant to be an attention getter. By the reading of the law these are legal. What is illegal is emergency services style warning lights whether they are dash mounted, roof mounted or hidden away in the headlights. But from the post that is not what drbart2 is describing. Hope I haven't complicated things worse but that is how I read it. Forgive me if I'm wrong.
txinvestigator
TGT Addict
Yes, I know what he wrote, What he described is prohibited in the Texas Transportation code.
It is really a non issue with me and I regret posting it. As I said above, this officer no longer works for Cleburne and from what I understand from local LEO's, does not work as a LEO any more. (not because of our experience). The bulb? I changed it right there in the parking lot after the officer left (I always carry a spare).
Back to the topic. You know, you don't see the gun racks in the windows of pickups like you used to. I am guessing that these days, if you hung your shotgun/rifle up there it wouldn't be long before it was stolen. What a shame.
As I said above, this officer no longer works for Cleburne and from what I understand from local LEO's, does not work as a LEO any more. (not because of our experience). The bulb? I changed it right there in the parking lot after the officer left (I always carry a spare). Back to the topic. You know, you don't see the gun racks in the windows of pickups like you used to. I am guessing that these days, if you hung your shotgun/rifle up there it wouldn't be long before it was stolen. What a shame.
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