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"Should have known better" - Why Pro-gunners can really tick me off

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  • CrazedJava

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    Sep 5, 2013
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    I'm sure by now many of you have heard of the plight of Shaneen Allen, a PA resident who is being prosecuted in NJ for carrying an unlicensed weapon in NJ. Ms. Allen has a legal permit in PA but during a traffic stop was discovered with her weapon and charged with a felony. There are a lot of details I am leaving out, but those are the simple facts of the case.

    The response I have seen on many sites, forums, blogs, etc. is "She should have known better".

    I am so tired of this response to an obvious injustice.

    There is a great book out there called Go Directly to Jail: The Criminalization of Everything

    Today, most of you committed a crime. You didn't even know. Many say "Ignorance of the law is no excuse for wrongdoing." That saying was supposed to apply to obvious bad behavior, like murder or theft. You couldn't say "I didn't know theft was against the law" as a defense. In many cases, the laws are now being written for actions that people honestly don't know are illegal.

    Those of you who didn't commit a crime today, and you are in the minority, will likely commit one tomorrow. Chances are good that you commit a misdemeanor almost daily regardless of what state you live in. Chances are almost as good that you are committing a Federal Felony daily. You may be committing a felony in accordance with state laws as well. There are too many laws and they change all the time. There is no reliable source for what is current legal behavior.

    All any of us needs is to be caught at the wrong place at the wrong time. A police officer in the state of Texas, or most states for that matter, can take away your freedom for a day with nothing more than "reasonable suspicion". 24 hours in jail for nothing at all. Just imagine if they find any evidence of wrongdoing, innocent or not.

    I know, I saw it done many times.

    If you are one of those unlucky individuals, will you feel it is just for people to say "You should have known better"?

    I agree with anyone who says carrying a gun is a responsibility. That said, not everyone who carries a gun visits forums, constantly researches, and discusses firearms and the law with other gun owners. Many people just want to take their test and get their firearm. They want to purchase peace of mind and a little safety. To many of these people, the legal process and finding information on it is intimidating and near inaccessible. It is easy to stand in judgement when you are surrounded by people like minded people, but not so easy if you are just a working slob trying to make ends meet who became one of those people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    We should be worried about this. Every new gun law is a FELONY. Felonies used to be reserved for heinous crimes. Now it is a felony to load 8 rounds in a 10 round magazine in NY state. Imagine you go to visit one day, get pulled over, oops you forgot to unload your magazine. Now you are a felon. You just lost the right to vote and you can't own guns anymore. Should you have known better?

    An honest mistake should not carry such dire consequences. Someone with no ill intent should not be made into a criminal. Sadly, the way our current legal structure is, you are all criminals waiting for that one bad encounter with law enforcement.

    Instead of standing in judgement of those who made an honest mistake and are paying unjust consequences we should be standing by their side in protest of a system that turns honest people into outlaws while outlaws are allowed to prey on the innocent. There isn't anything wrong with Ms. Allen's actions, there is something wrong with a system that would seek to prosecute someone like her.

    (Disclaimer: This was not directed at anyone specific at TGT but was inspired by yet another article on Ms. Allen's plight)
    Target Sports
     
    Last edited:

    Younggun

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    Not sure I've seen many posts on this board like you describe. Least no in that situation.

    For the most part, you're probably preaching to the choir.
     

    Dawico

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    I agree in general.

    But imagine if one of our neighboring states had NJ gun laws. I like to think I would be very careful going through there. NJ gun laws are no secret and no joke.

    She should have known better but I also believe she is going to pay a major price for a minor infraction.

    True, not everyone educates themselves on gun laws. But we must all take responsibility for our actions also.

    Sad thing is if she was a star or wealthy it would probably all go away.
     

    benenglish

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    I'll have to check that out. I also recommend Three Felonies a Day: How the Feds Target the Innocent: http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonie...06778952&sr=1-1&keywords=three+felonies+a+day

    Someone with no ill intent should not be made into a criminal.
    That argument was lost a long time ago. The necessity of mens rea as a component of guilt for criminal acts is shrinking over time. There are powerful people who seem to want strict liability for everything.

    I feel the same way you do but the law is on our side less and less every day where this issue is concerned.
     
    Last edited:

    TwinGlocks

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    Dec 19, 2011
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    mistakesdemotivator.jpg
     

    ROGER4314

    Been Called "Flash" Since I Was A Kid!
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    1   0   0
    Jul 11, 2009
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    I was in New York visiting my Uncle John and his family. We were warned to have NOTHING that could POSSIBLY be viewed as a weapon in our car! Their laws are so strict that if you change a tire and toss the tire tool in the car afterwards, you could be facing a felony charge. Sports equipment is the same...golf clubs, bats etc. are usual targets.

    The lady should have known that she was entering the "Outer Limits" and travelers with out of state tags are easy prey for cops looking for a major case to file.

    Flash
     
    Last edited:

    Saltyag2010

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    Feb 11, 2014
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    I'm sure by now many of you have heard of the plight of Shaneen Allen, a PA resident who is being prosecuted in NJ for carrying an unlicensed weapon in NJ. Ms. Allen has a legal permit in PA but during a traffic stop was discovered with her weapon and charged with a felony. There are a lot of details I am leaving out, but those are the simple facts of the case.

    The response I have seen on many sites, forums, blogs, etc. is "She should have known better".

    I am so tired of this response to an obvious injustice.

    There is a great book out there called Go Directly to Jail: The Criminalization of Everything

    Today, most of you committed a crime. You didn't even know. Many say "Ignorance of the law is no excuse for wrongdoing." That saying was supposed to apply to obvious bad behavior, like murder or theft. You couldn't say "I didn't know theft was against the law" as a defense. In many cases, the laws are now being written for actions that people honestly don't know are illegal.

    Those of you who didn't commit a crime today, and you are in the minority, will likely commit one tomorrow. Chances are good that you commit a misdemeanor almost daily regardless of what state you live in. Chances are almost as good that you are committing a Federal Felony daily. You may be committing a felony in accordance with state laws as well. There are too many laws and they change all the time. There is no reliable source for what is current legal behavior.

    All any of us needs is to be caught at the wrong place at the wrong time. A police officer in the state of Texas, or most states for that matter, can take away your freedom for a day with nothing more than "reasonable suspicion". 24 hours in jail for nothing at all. Just imagine if they find any evidence of wrongdoing, innocent or not.

    I know, I saw it done many times.

    If you are one of those unlucky individuals, will you feel it is just for people to say "You should have known better"?

    I agree with anyone who says carrying a gun is a responsibility. That said, not everyone who carries a gun visits forums, constantly researches, and discusses firearms and the law with other gun owners. Many people just want to take their test and get their firearm. They want to purchase peace of mind and a little safety. To many of these people, the legal process and finding information on it is intimidating and near inaccessible. It is easy to stand in judgement when you are surrounded by people like minded people, but not so easy if you are just a working slob trying to make ends meet who became one of those people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    We should be worried about this. Every new gun law is a FELONY. Felonies used to be reserved for heinous crimes. Now it is a felony to load 8 rounds in a 10 round magazine in NY state. Imagine you go to visit one day, get pulled over, oops you forgot to unload your magazine. Now you are a felon. You just lost the right to vote and you can't own guns anymore. Should you have known better?

    An honest mistake should not carry such dire consequences. Someone with no ill intent should not be made into a criminal. Sadly, the way our current legal structure is, you are all criminals waiting for that one bad encounter with law enforcement.

    Instead of standing in judgement of those who made an honest mistake and are paying unjust consequences we should be standing by their side in protest of a system that turns honest people into outlaws while outlaws are allowed to prey on the innocent. There isn't anything wrong with Ms. Allen's actions, there is something wrong with a system that would seek to prosecute someone like her.

    (Disclaimer: This was not directed at anyone specific at TGT but was inspired by yet another article on Ms. Allen's plight)
    Mexico has some very "bring a gun and go to jail" laws also. Mexico touches Texas but there are border checks. They don't have border checks between red and blue states.
     

    Saltyag2010

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    They should.
    It would be like this-
    "Sir, You're entering a very liberal-minded, anti-gun state with a ton of violent crime. Do you have a weapon? They are not allowed in this state you are entering. I'll have to ask you to turn around and continue back into your reasonable-law state and come back at a later time without a way of defending yourself and your property. Have a nice day now."

    "And you should have known better."
     

    RetArmySgt

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    PA gives a reciprocity map with the paperwork you pick up from the Sheriff when you get your license, according to thier faq on the licensing site. So she knew she couldn't carry it in NJ if she read the paperwork that was handed to her with the license.
     

    Saltyag2010

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    Wait..it's illegal to carry a pistol in NJ? Oops.
    But Chris Christie could be the next moderate Republican presidential candidate? We heard all about it in 2012? Is having a staff that closes some lanes on a bridge worse that getting Americans killed at a foreign embassy and covering it up and losing your job over it, because I'm sure Hillary will run?

    Gov Christie- Republicans cling to their guns and Bible. Get with the program.
     

    CrazedJava

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    The only way Christie gets elected is if he eats the other candidates.

    Which isn't a bad thing because that will eliminate the slow and weak ones. Sorry, McCain.
     

    Saltyag2010

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    The only way Christie gets elected is if he eats the other candidates.

    Which isn't a bad thing because that will eliminate the slow and weak ones. Sorry, McCain.
    Chris Christie could power through Bachman and Palin in 1 sitting. I'm just glad Paul won't run because he'd be eaten by Chris Christie for sure.

    That guy can eat! I saw him eat a cat once. That cat didn't know what hit him. It was like arr arr arr... maybe it was a lobster..
     

    Younggun

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    The only way Christie gets elected is if he eats the other candidates.

    Which isn't a bad thing because that will eliminate the slow and weak ones. Sorry, McCain.

    Don't forget where the primaries start. He has much more popularity in the NE.
     

    AustinN4

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    Is having a staff that closes some lanes on a bridge worse that getting Americans killed at a foreign embassy and covering it up and losing your job over it, because I'm sure Hillary will run?
    I am not saying that I would vote for Christie in the primary, but..............If Christie wins the primary, and the choice becomes Christie v Clinton, I will most assuredly vote for Christie.
     

    Mexican_Hippie

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    It would be like this-
    "Sir, You're entering a very liberal-minded, anti-gun state with a ton of violent crime. Do you have a weapon? They are not allowed in this state you are entering. I'll have to ask you to turn around and continue back into your reasonable-law state and come back at a later time without a way of defending yourself and your property. Have a nice day now."

    "And you should have known better."

    Ha ha that's great!
     
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