TRACT Optics

Sig Being Sued Bigly ( 320 Firing on Its Own)

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  • SURVIVOR619

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    Hoping to add additional information to the conversation for each of us to independently consider whether all information is available when assessing how reliable the dude is in the video where he says his sig just blasted him while resting in his holster.

    Was his Sig one of those with the 'old' (and clearly flawed) design? Did he submit his through the upgrade process? Did someone note he was using a modified holster... if that is the case, such a factor changes the matter for any other responsible gun user who follows the rules of prudent care and handling, including storage, especially in a holster at condition 1.

    I've attached a diagram from Sig which identifies their upgrade/design change which Sig feels mitigates the risk. I'm no engineer nor gunsmith so unqualified to opine as to whether this design change is good enough. I do own three P320s, and 2 P365s. My 320s are all post 2017 so don't require the 'upgrade' and I feel fine carrying them in condition 1. This is my choice as it is yours to avoid them.

    950cf80b7b210661a0ac5e59274c4ae8.jpg


    ETA: Saved before attaching the diagram. Morning Derp.
     

    Havok1

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    I'm spitballing, same as you. I don't have the guns, but i know how they work, and i am making educated guesses. We know the guns have flaws. And said flaws can absolutely lead to a gun going bang.

    Why aren't guns going run away? Most discharges happen in holster it seems. They will typically restrict the slide from cycling, and as I've said, not all guns are the same. None. Not one. You know how ever person has a different fingerprint? A gun is 60+ parts that all have fingerprints.

    I'm wrong about how his ND occured? Then so are you.

    There is only one company that is currently fighting against 9+ SIMILAR lawsuits.

    Sig Sauer. Not glock. Not ruger. Not hk. Not Beretta. Sig.

    If you go to the police and ask them to look into your sig, they will tell you to f**k off. In the off chance they agree, Sig will sue you for attempting to release their TDP/trade secrets, and you WILL loose that battle.
    I am spitballing, but my theory is easily explainable. Do you think anyone would argue that what I am suggesting could not cause a ND exactly the way he said his happened?

    The holsters may restrict slide speed but that still ignores that this would not become a problem at the same time with each gun. You say the guns are not always the same, but somehow the springs all break right before the gun is holstered when there is still a round chambered?

    Unless you know someone on the legal team of a firearms manufacturer who would tell you, we don’t know how many lawsuits they are dealing with at any given time. The only reason this is getting the coverage it is is because of the previous drop issue. In fact, that’s probably the only reason many of the lawsuits have been filed. A google search will show that other manufacturers get sued for similar things, and that’s still only the ones we know about. Just because we have heard of 9 lawsuits against sig doesn’t mean that’s all they are dealing with. Just because you haven’t heard of any against other manufacturers doesn’t mean they haven’t been filed. Most of the time lawsuits will get little to no coverage, other than when people want everyone to know it’s #metoo.

    I wasn’t saying a random person should go to the police to have their gun inspected. Plenty of these guns were duty guns for police.
     

    zackmars

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    I asked why the law firms that are representing these people in the multiple law suits are not paying to have questions about the pistol answered. Not the person who purchased the pistol.
    Who's to say they haven't? I'm not involved in the lawsuits, i can't say how they are approaching it.

    But i can say this, a gunsmith likely isn't going to accept that work, they certainly aren't going to rip through it and get it done the same day. I'm not sure why you don't understand that. You must have never dealt with an actual real gunsmith before.

    And if the SRS or sear are deformed enough to cause this, it shouldn't be necessary to send it off to a smith to tell you it isn't right
     

    zackmars

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    I am spitballing, but my theory is easily explainable. Do you think anyone would argue that what I am suggesting could not cause a ND exactly the way he said his happened?

    The holsters may restrict slide speed but that still ignores that this would not become a problem at the same time with each gun. You say the guns are not always the same, but somehow the springs all break right before the gun is holstered when there is still a round chambered?

    Unless you know someone on the legal team of a firearms manufacturer who would tell you, we don’t know how many lawsuits they are dealing with at any given time. The only reason this is getting the coverage it is is because of the previous drop issue. In fact, that’s probably the only reason many of the lawsuits have been filed. A google search will show that other manufacturers get sued for similar things, and that’s still only the ones we know about. Just because we have heard of 9 lawsuits against sig doesn’t mean that’s all they are dealing with. Just because you haven’t heard of any against other manufacturers doesn’t mean they haven’t been filed. Most of the time lawsuits will get little to no coverage, other than when people want everyone to know it’s #metoo.

    I wasn’t saying a random person should go to the police to have their gun inspected. Plenty of these guns were duty guns for police.

    Yes the springs all break because sig
    download (1).png


    Walther
    2627337_1_clipped_rev_2-2.png


    Obviously not to scale


    Every part is unique, but there is a limit. That tiny ass spring in sigs are just too small. Do i really need to explain this? Gee. It really makes a guy wonder why sig is going through all these lawsuits, when everyone else (who where smart enough to properly design a gun) aren't.


    F234C3D1-0D42-45F5-8203-026DBCE0C7A0.jpg


    Looks good to me!
     

    SURVIVOR619

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    It really makes a guy wonder why sig is going through all these lawsuits, when everyone else (who where smart enough to properly design a gun) aren't.
    Others (S&W and Glock) have indeed gone through these lawsuits and interestingly, majority of the plaintiffs are LEO.

    Disclaimer: no dig on our Peace Officers - I very much value them and their service to our society, including my dad who is a retired Peace Officer.
     

    zackmars

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    Others (S&W and Glock) have indeed gone through these lawsuits and interestingly, majority of the plaintiffs are LEO.

    Disclaimer: no dig on our Peace Officers - I very much value them and their service to our society, including my dad who is a retired Peace Officer.

    Glock and S&W are not fully tensioned strikers. There is absolutely no way for the guns to fire, unless you throw it in a fire or pull the trigger.

    Sig is a fully tensioned striker, and if the SRS isn't able to handle the rigors of its job, and there is extremely poor sear contact, the gun can quite possibly fire.

    Neither glock or s&w has gone through 9+ similar lawsuits at once. Sig has. Not glock. Not s&w. Sig.
     

    Tcruse

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    I understand there isn't an independent body to send these pistols to for testing. And I've seen the pictures and videos. But as far as I know those are not of the pistols in question. I understand that there could be a design problem causing these incidents but you tube videos and forum pictures criticizing a design aren't scientific proof. If it is a design problem it should be repeatable. I'm inferring from your post that you think an attorney looking for a multimillion pay out can't find a gunsmith or armorer to verify a design flaw to prove their case of the know issue.? Have metallurgical tests done on components etc.

    The conspiracy theory idea can be argued for both sides of this issue imo. I know you and others here have more firearm knowledge than I do. I just still lean toward people are messing up and looking to blame the tool. I want better scientific proof.
    Or just trying to get a big payoff. So, far I think much of this talk is just fraud on the part of the people making these claims.
     

    Havok1

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    Yes the springs all break because sig View attachment 359991

    Walther View attachment 359992

    Obviously not to scale


    Every part is unique, but there is a limit. That tiny ass spring in sigs are just too small. Do i really need to explain this? Gee. It really makes a guy wonder why sig is going through all these lawsuits, when everyone else (who where smart enough to properly design a gun) aren't.


    View attachment 359993

    Looks good to me!
    You may want to do some searching on the various lawsuits brought against other manufacturers.

    Are you aware of any lawsuit against sig that mentions this spring being broken? I searched through the recent lawsuit with 21 plaintiffs and found no mention of that spring being broken in any of their guns. Maybe it’s out there somewhere in another lawsuit that I haven’t read through. Not saying the spring isn’t a problem, but it’s not what this group is suing over. It wasn’t a problem in Guays gun, or the officers that he based his case on. So is it not possible that the spring is garbage but has nothing to do with the ND’s?

    How many total ND’s are you aware of with the sigs that you think are caused by a faulty gun, and what are you comparing that number against that makes it stand out? Or is it just the number of publicly known lawsuits?
     

    Tcruse

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    If you understand this, why ask it?

    You don't need to have a large knowledge of firearms to know that this; View attachment 359920

    Is NOT acceptable. Guns are not all the same. Not every gun gets inspected by the same well motivated and knowledgeable QC guy or gal. Not every spring is the same. Not every barrel blank is the same.

    Even a company that does NO quality control will put out a good gun now and again. Sig definitely does some QC, but not enough to ensure the parts that are already on the edge (like the SRS) get rejected

    Or it might not be because of the QC. it could be the end result of trying to turn the DAO P250 into the striker fired 320.

    Whatever, or whoever it is, we as consumers can only do the best we can, and we should ask for better, instead of turning into fanboys and dismissing stuff out of hand. Be it Sig, Glock, CZ, Beretta...
    And exactly why this was not discovered during normal maintenance and cleaning? Of the 500K P-320's in use, you would think that the problem would be much more common and there be a known way to reproduce. Without being able to reproduce the problem there is no case against Sig.
     
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