Sig Being Sued Bigly ( 320 Firing on Its Own)

[toddnjoyce]

And your solution is?

Great question. I *think* punitive vs “fix it” is my dividing line, where “fix it” is may be an industry consensus standard for operation/failure mode.

In and of itself, that’s a complex topic and I’m
a couple of bourbons in, so I’m gonna call it a night.

 

[zackmars]

I’m just guessing. It could not have happened the way you’re saying based on what was said in the video. Do you know the witnesses?

and you can’t honestly think sig is the only one who gets sued for this, right?

Yes, it could have. Sig uses a tiny, poorly made spring that is one of two things that keep the firing pin from staying forward.

The other is the sear. Sig has expertly designed a gun with poor sear engagement, and questionable metallurgy.

No, i don't know the witnesses, but I've been in competitions where others have had actual NDs. They (RSO's) don't back the shooter unless the shooter was totally in the clear. Do you know the witnesses?

Do you honestly think walther or HK or SAI is fighting off at least 9 similar lawsuits?

Remember what i said, if all you have is "everybody blames the equipment" then you don't have an argument.

 

[Eastexasrick]

I'm sure you can just walk into a forensic lab with your sig and they'll just do all the tests you want


The new asswipe has been running sig for the better part of 20 years or so.

You will need an appointment. That's what they do. It will cost you based up the nature of the item being tested. Its all time and material, as with any business. We had half a dozen in Texas we used, depending on the venue, for every type of destructive testing you can imagine, from brindle hardness of a Saginaw steering gear to ductility of crossover lines on a Peterbilt.

20 years or so. They must have been a decent company before he got there, as it seems with his talent, he would have completely cratered them by now.

 

[zackmars]

I understand there isn't an independent body to send these pistols to for testing.

If you understand this, why ask it?

You don't need to have a large knowledge of firearms to know that this;

Is NOT acceptable. Guns are not all the same. Not every gun gets inspected by the same well motivated and knowledgeable QC guy or gal. Not every spring is the same. Not every barrel blank is the same.

Even a company that does NO quality control will put out a good gun now and again. Sig definitely does some QC, but not enough to ensure the parts that are already on the edge (like the SRS) get rejected

Or it might not be because of the QC. it could be the end result of trying to turn the DAO P250 into the striker fired 320.

Whatever, or whoever it is, we as consumers can only do the best we can, and we should ask for better, instead of turning into fanboys and dismissing stuff out of hand. Be it Sig, Glock, CZ, Beretta...

 

[zackmars]

You will need an appointment. That's what they do. It will cost you based up the nature of the item being tested. Its all time and material, as with any business. We had half a dozen in Texas we used, depending on the venue, for every type of destructive testing you can imagine, from brindle hardness of a Saginaw steering gear to ductility of crossover lines on a Peterbilt.

20 years or so. They must have been a decent company before he got there, as it seems with his talent, he would have completely cratered them by now.

That sounds very accessible for an individual to do.

Ron cohen really does ruin companies, but he also makes them money. Sig USA was not in a good state when he came along.

It takes a lot for a big company to crater. Remington, Colt, S&W are proof.

 

[Eastexasrick]

On t

That sounds very accessible for an individual to do.

Ron cohen really does ruin companies, but he also makes them money. Sig USA was not in a good state when he came along.

It takes a lot for a big company to crater. Remington, Colt, S&W are proof.

On that note I give you Jay Brown. Former CEO of Firemans Fund, which he just about destroyed, before American Express rescued them. CEO of Talegen Holding, which under his leadership was placed in receivership, and sold off in pieces ( where I worked). Safeco Insurance which he left in a shambles leaving them for Liberty Mutual, who bought the remains at a fire sale. Lastly MBIA which borrowed 3 billion under his leadership, he left before the notes came due. All this done while the asswipe Ron whittled away at Sig. One man can kill a big company fast.

 

[candcallen]

A couple comments directed to my posts I just saw.

The events I'm referring to are all police department related. Iirc especially Philly transit which is where the gun in the holster went off. The officer was mid shift sitting in a golf cart next to another officer watching a transit station with lots of people when his weapon fired in its holster hitting the golf cart. There are witnesses and partial video confirming they wernt moving and no one touched the gun.

It may be the same department where the gun went off in a desk drawer with no one around the desk.

When these things happen you have a huge burden of proof to show it was a malfunction instead of a ND. For enture departments to have dumped their entire supply because of multiple issues that there is proof that the weapon isn't drop safe or impact safe or some sort of unknown or intermittent failure is damning.

Remember the remington 700 issues weren't repeatable or testable in the beginning. Remington stated their stuff was safe but tge fact is sometimes the gun fired without the user pulling the trigger and that's what is happening here.

Sear engagement issues are scary. It can work properly 99 times out of a hundred before it doesn't and then it can be fine again till the failure becomes repeatable. I've seen break action shotguns fire when the action closed. Then upon inspection looked OK then a few weeks later did it again then finally the issue became readily apparent upon inspection.

People on both sides if this are absolutely idiots if they dig in on position. Critical thinking requires that you take each instance on its merits then the preponderance of the evidence as a whole.

The drop safe question is beyond refute at this point. It doesn't matter if the reason is a design failure parts failure or springs weak enough that the weight of the trigger is enough to pull itself if it hits the ground the right way. The gun was not drop safe and a gun meant for mitary or police will get knocked around or dropped peroid.

Is there a fix or design change to fix that? So they say. Can you believe or trust it when they quietly try to limit liability instead of being upfront about it?

The issue with actual striker engagement or sear engagement failure is also starting to be beyond refute IMHO.

I absolutely believe sig knows the full truth and cause and if it comes out that they tried to hide this then I hope they go bankrupt over it. I can give them a pass for thinking their design was sound but they gotta know something is wrong at this point.

As for those of us discussing this, people shouldn't take the difference in opinions personal and you really shouldn't discount so many stories with witnesses. You are just as big a fool for taking a manufacturers word that the problem is all caused by the user as you are believing every story you hear on the internet. It's serious cases of confirmation bias on both sides. The truth, as always is somewhere in the middle and in this case that should scare the hell out of anyone who carries one of these weapons.

 

[zackmars]

I'd be willing to bet if you went to the effort of having a forensics lab go through a sig with a fine tooth comb, sig'd hit you with a 1-2 lawsuit/NDA punch so fast you wouldn't believe it

And in all fairness, any other company would probably have the same reaction. I wouldn't be willing to go through that over a 600 dollar pistol

 

[Havok1]

Yes, it could have. Sig uses a tiny, poorly made spring that is one of two things that keep the firing pin from staying forward.

The other is the sear. Sig has expertly designed a gun with poor sear engagement, and questionable metallurgy.

No, i don't know the witnesses, but I've been in competitions where others have had actual NDs. They (RSO's) don't back the shooter unless the shooter was totally in the clear. Do you know the witnesses?

Do you honestly think walther or HK or SAI is fighting off at least 9 similar lawsuits?

Remember what i said, if all you have is "everybody blames the equipment" then you don't have an argument.

For you to be correct, the guy in the video would have to be wrong about how his own ND occurred. If what you are saying was correct it would have already fired earlier than when the guy in the video said the ND occurred. Why are we not also hearing about runaway guns? It would also be a heck of a coincidence that this becomes an issue after the last round is fired before holstering the gun each time. If there is an issue, with the guns that’s causing them to fire, it would have to be something else. The ND’s occurring with these guns are not only not all the same, but they are not unlike ND’s that don’t seem out of the ordinary when they involve other guns.

I don’t know how many lawsuits other companies are dealing with because I have no idea how many of them are made public vs. not. But I can find various stories about lawsuits against gun manufacturers. I’d be shocked if any gun companies this big aren’t dealing with several lawsuits at any given time. Kind of like sexual assault accusations against high profile people, once attention gets drawn to it, there won’t be a shortage of people wanting their slice of the pie. Especially if they are worried that having a ND might affect their job. It would be interesting to know exactly how many lawsuits are filed against various manufacturers each year though.

As far as the lab stuff, police departments have easy access to labs if they want to test anything. The spring theory could be tested pretty easily.

 

[innominate]

If you understand this, why ask it?

You don't need to have a large knowledge of firearms to know that this; View attachment 359920

Is NOT acceptable. Guns are not all the same. Not every gun gets inspected by the same well motivated and knowledgeable QC guy or gal. Not every spring is the same. Not every barrel blank is the same.

Even a company that does NO quality control will put out a good gun now and again. Sig definitely does some QC, but not enough to ensure the parts that are already on the edge (like the SRS) get rejected

Or it might not be because of the QC. it could be the end result of trying to turn the DAO P250 into the striker fired 320.

Whatever, or whoever it is, we as consumers can only do the best we can, and we should ask for better, instead of turning into fanboys and dismissing stuff out of hand. Be it Sig, Glock, CZ, Beretta...

I ask because there isn't a NTSB type investigation for all firearm failures. But they can be sent to an independent expert, gunsmith, whatever you want to call them for testing/ inspection. You seem to imply that there is no one willing to test/ inspect these pistols that were involved in these incidents. And no attorney willing to pay for that testing.The most recent pistols, that discharged on their own, should be able to be tested and the results should be repeatable. A big law firm isn't willing to spend 6-7 figures to buy and test fcu's and springs to provide a smoking gun to prove their case against a major firearm manufacturer that could be worth 7-8+ figures? I see commercials everyday that show attorney expenses in the 6-7 figures with awards to plaintiffs in the 7-8 figures. A design so bad and parts of such poor quality but a law firm isn't willing to pay to prove those points to win a major lawsuit Or a group of individuals that say a pistol just goes off on its own when they were negligent. I could be wrong but I think the simpler answer is operator error.

If the design and quality control is so bad I would argue that we should see more of these incidents with the number of pistols in circulation and number of rounds fired. I'm not a fan boy I just like evidence based practice. you tube videos and pictures of broken springs with no control isn't that for me. Could the design lend itself that a light trigger make it easier for a ND to occur? I can see that. But i still believe something actuated the trigger for these incidents in question.