Sig Being Sued Bigly ( 320 Firing on Its Own)

[V-Tach]

 

[zackmars]

For you to be correct, the guy in the video would have to be wrong about how his own ND occurred. If what you are saying was correct it would have already fired earlier than when the guy in the video said the ND occurred. Why are we not also hearing about runaway guns? It would also be a heck of a coincidence that this becomes an issue after the last round is fired before holstering the gun each time. If there is an issue, with the guns that’s causing them to fire, it would have to be something else. The ND’s occurring with these guns are not only not all the same, but they are not unlike ND’s that don’t seem out of the ordinary when they involve other guns.

I don’t know how many lawsuits other companies are dealing with because I have no idea how many of them are made public vs. not. But I can find various stories about lawsuits against gun manufacturers. I’d be shocked if any gun companies this big aren’t dealing with several lawsuits at any given time. Kind of like sexual assault accusations against high profile people, once attention gets drawn to it, there won’t be a shortage of people wanting their slice of the pie. Especially if they are worried that having a ND might affect their job. It would be interesting to know exactly how many lawsuits are filed against various manufacturers each year though.

As far as the lab stuff, police departments have easy access to labs if they want to test anything. The spring theory could be tested pretty easily.

I'm spitballing, same as you. I don't have the guns, but i know how they work, and i am making educated guesses. We know the guns have flaws. And said flaws can absolutely lead to a gun going bang.

Why aren't guns going run away? Most discharges happen in holster it seems. They will typically restrict the slide from cycling, and as I've said, not all guns are the same. None. Not one. You know how ever person has a different fingerprint? A gun is 60+ parts that all have fingerprints.

I'm wrong about how his ND occured? Then so are you.

There is only one company that is currently fighting against 9+ SIMILAR lawsuits.

Sig Sauer. Not glock. Not ruger. Not hk. Not Beretta. Sig.

If you go to the police and ask them to look into your sig, they will tell you to f**k off. In the off chance they agree, Sig will sue you for attempting to release their TDP/trade secrets, and you WILL loose that battle.

 

[Texasjack]

Count yourself lucky. Many have, gone off. On video or witnessed by multiple people, in holsters or sitting alone in desk drawers absolutely verifiable they were un touched. Then there is the actual drop safe issues.

Yes we all said bullshit in the beginning they had to be touching them, just like the remington 700 issues. Well they wernt. I'm sure a couple folks are using the problem as cover for actual ND but there are actual drop safe issues and issues of the guns going off all by themselves.

At this point the bean counters have decided its cheaper to deny deflect and fight lawsuits as well as quietly buy back whole departments purchases than doing the right thing. That is redesigning the thing properly and replacing everyone ever made.

I'm not a sig fanboi although I've had a couple of their 1911s. They are awesome but I will never buy a striker fired sig. Like the remington 700 the issue is absolutely but it will take forever for them to admit it. True, most folks will never experience it but at this point the rarity doesn't make it any less deadly.

It isn't anything like the Remington 700 situation. Oh, my! How can you say that!?! Because I owned a f**king Remington 700 and I know exactly how it was and I got rid of it for that exact reason. Pretty much every Remington 700 had that issue with the safety. I have more than one P-320 and I can say - and have said - that I have never had an issue with them. That's simply a fact. Literally millions of P-320s have been sold and a few have ALLEGEDLY gone off all by their lonesome. Sig has made it through other lawsuits alleging the same thing. How? Because they're cases where someone wasn't handling the firearm correctly. But this IS the internet where nobody wants to discuss the mechanism by which anything happen or look at real statistics. Instead we have people piling onto the latest truckload of a$$holes and and swearing, By GOD, I'll never buy one of those things!! H*ll, you weren't buying one anyway. Meanwhile, you're cheering on a bunch of lawyers who are trying to sue a gun manufacturer out of business. You think they'll stop with Sig??? No. If they can manage to get a settlement on this, they'll be suing every other manufacturer that exists. And how many of the "victims" will get rich?? Not one. Not stinkin' one. The lawyers will keep all but the pocket change and the Leftists who have been trying to crush the firearms industry for years will be cheering them on.

 

[innominate]

If you go to the police and ask them to look into your sig, they will tell you to f**k off. In the off chance they agree, Sig will sue you for attempting to release their TDP/trade secrets, and you WILL loose that battle.

Are you saying if you disassemble a pistol beyond field strip they're going to sue you for copyright? I don't think understanding your point. I'm a couple vodaks in at this point

 

[zackmars]

I ask because there isn't a NTSB type investigation for all firearm failures. But they can be sent to an independent expert, gunsmith, whatever you want to call them for testing/ inspection. You seem to imply that there is no one willing to test/ inspect these pistols that were involved in these incidents. And no attorney willing to pay for that testing.The most recent pistols, that discharged on their own, should be able to be tested and the results should be repeatable. A big law firm isn't willing to spend 6-7 figures to buy and test fcu's and springs to provide a smoking gun to prove their case against a major firearm manufacturer that could be worth 7-8+ figures? I see commercials everyday that show attorney expenses in the 6-7 figures with awards to plaintiffs in the 7-8 figures. A design so bad and parts of such poor quality but a law firm isn't willing to pay to prove those points to win a major lawsuit Or a group of individuals that say a pistol just goes off on its own when they were negligent. I could be wrong but I think the simpler answer is operator error.

If the design and quality control is so bad I would argue that we should see more of these incidents with the number of pistols in circulation and number of rounds fired. I'm not a fan boy I just like evidence based practice. you tube videos and pictures of broken springs with no control isn't that for me. Could the design lend itself that a light trigger make it easier for a ND to occur? I can see that. But i still believe something actuated the trigger for these incidents in question.

You know there's no NTSB type place that does that, so you ask why they don't send it off to an NTSB type place?

Wut?

There are no independent experts or gunsmiths that will do that because #1 it won't tell you much (do you know what the correct amount of sear engagement on a 320 is?)



If you found someone willing to do that, it'll cost. Are you seriously asking someone who almost got shot by their own pistol to fork over a lot of money and time to get some info that if you were to release, Sig would sue you over?

FFS dude just go tell him to put a stock on his AR pistol and call the ATF about it. It'd be cheaper to just get rung up on an NFA violation and plead guilty and spend 10 years in prison.


Yes, you are a fanboy. You demand evidence you can't get because you just can't even entertain the idea sig might be at fault. Ask yourself, would we be having this conversation if we were talking about Remington 700's?

 

[zackmars]

Are you saying if you disassemble a pistol beyond field strip they're going to sue you for copyright? I don't think understanding your point. I'm a couple vodaks in at this point

Thats not how that works. TDP's are serious business, and companies will sue the *shit* out of you.

If i detail strip a colt 6920, measure everything, figure out the heat treatment, the coatings, all that stuff, and sell that information, or even leak it, Colt would sue me for releasing what is their Technical Data Package.

Colt has won at least one lawsuit against the government after the government gave the M4 TDP to DPMS, IIRC

 

[candcallen]

It isn't anything like the Remington 700 situation. Oh, my! How can you say that!?! Because I owned a f**king Remington 700 and I know exactly how it was and I got rid of it for that exact reason. Pretty much every Remington 700 had that issue with the safety. I have more than one P-320 and I can say - and have said - that I have never had an issue with them. That's simply a fact. Literally millions of P-320s have been sold and a few have ALLEGEDLY gone off all by their lonesome. Sig has made it through other lawsuits alleging the same thing. How? Because they're cases where someone wasn't handling the firearm correctly. But this IS the internet where nobody wants to discuss the mechanism by which anything happen or look at real statistics. Instead we have people piling onto the latest truckload of a$$holes and and swearing, By GOD, I'll never buy one of those things!! H*ll, you weren't buying one anyway. Meanwhile, you're cheering on a bunch of lawyers who are trying to sue a gun manufacturer out of business. You think they'll stop with Sig??? No. If they can manage to get a settlement on this, they'll be suing every other manufacturer that exists. And how many of the "victims" will get rich?? Not one. Not stinkin' one. The lawyers will keep all but the pocket change and the Leftists who have been trying to crush the firearms industry for years will be cheering them on.

I didn't say the cause of the sig problem is the same as the remington problem. I said sig is acting like remington in their deny obfuscate and blame the user response.

If The rest of your comment was directed at me specifically it has no basis in reality regarding anything I've said done or thought. It's so full of assumptions and feelz that discussing would simply devolve into useless round n round.

 

[innominate]

You know there's no NTSB type place that does that, so you ask why they don't send it off to an NTSB type place?

Wut?

There are no independent experts or gunsmiths that will do that because #1 it won't tell you much (do you know what the correct amount of sear engagement on a 320 is?)



If you found someone willing to do that, it'll cost. Are you seriously asking someone who almost got shot by their own pistol to fork over a lot of money and time to get some info that if you were to release, Sig would sue you over?

FFS dude just go tell him to put a stock on his AR pistol and call the ATF about it. It'd be cheaper to just get rung up on an NFA violation and plead guilty and spend 10 years in prison.


Yes, you are a fanboy. You demand evidence you can't get because you just can't even entertain the idea sig might be at fault. Ask yourself, would we be having this conversation if we were talking about Remington 700's?

I didn't say it should be sent to a NTSB type place. I wrote it can be sent to a gun smith, armorer etc. You didn't read the part where I asked why a law firm wouldn't pay for that to win a large suit against a gun manufacturer? Maybe I'm not wording it to your liking but you're saying it can't be investigated that sig uses shit parts that break after so few cycles the pistol fires on its own? Or the design lend itself to fire on its own. I'm not asking for some individual to reveal sigs trademark processes. Firearm parts need to be replaced. Is there some magic number that sig didn't meet for their spring? Since it can't be proven? Is there a certain sear engagement number that must be met?

The sear engagement is ~2 mm. I have no idea why that number is in my head.

I'm a fanboy because I want proof? You're saying a faulty design can't be proven? I could care less if sig is at fault or not. I have no loyalty to sig. How does name calling prove the issue for your end?

I've heard about the 700 problems but I don't know anything about it so I have no reference how it relates to this issue.

I'm out bc I've had too much vodak.

 

[zackmars]

I didn't say it should be sent to a NTSB type place. I wrote it can be sent to a gun smith, armorer etc. You didn't read the part where I asked why a law firm wouldn't pay for that to win a large suit against a gun manufacturer? Maybe I'm not wording it to your liking but you're saying it can't be investigated that sig uses shit parts that break after so few cycles the pistol fires on its own? Or the design lend itself to fire on its own. I'm not asking for some individual to reveal sigs trademark processes. Firearm parts need to be replaced. Is there some magic number that sig didn't meet for their spring? Since it can't be proven? Is there a certain sear engagement number that must be met?

The sear engagement is ~2 mm. I have no idea why that number is in my head.

I'm a fanboy because I want proof? You're saying a faulty design can't be proven? I could care less if sig is at fault or not. I have no loyalty to sig. How does name calling prove the issue for your end?

I've heard about the 700 problems but I don't know anything about it so I have no reference how it relates to this issue.

I'm out bc I've had too much vodak.

A gunsmith would blow you off. An armorer replaces parts. They might be able to tell you if a part is defective, but they're most likely not going to know unless its an extremely obvious problem.

Springs deforming after a thousand rounds, or metal deforming after a thousand rounds would only be noticed if the problem has already manifested.

Please read some of my other replies. The 320 had a TDP. A Technical Data Package. That is proprietary information that sig has on how to build the 320. If you get this information, be it if you steal it from sig, or you reverse engineer the gun, compile said information and leak it, sig will sue you.

They will sue the shit out of you

Maybe if you're really lucky, they'll take mercy and slap you with an air tight NDA.

Literally every company will handle that situation that way. Colt, Beretta, Sig, HK. Usually guns that have Gov't contracts like the M4, M17/M18 are far more closely protected than say, a mossberg maverick 88

i am not saying it can't be investigated, but not at the cost of sending a 600 dollar pistol to a VERY EXPENSIVE smith for information you won't be able to do anything with, especially if sig were to go after the gunsmith who the gun was taken to. Do you know gunsmiths? I do. It's extremely low margins for actual smithing, and extremely long lead times. Having to get involved in litigation is something they try their hardest to avoid. .any who would be able to tell you if a sear is foo soft, or a spring is too small will either turn you away, or quote you an astronomical price to get you out of his hair.

You seem to think there's some place you can send a gun off to get a thorough read out of all the critical parts. Detailed breakdowns of the parts metallurgy.

It doesn't exist. Not for you. Not for me. It's there for the people who *need it*, and can afford it.

You are a fanboy. By the way you approached this whole thing, to you asking why a guy who has a bad $600 pistol wont spend thousands of his own money to find out something he cant do anything with.

You refuse to hear arguments, and are simply posting nonsense.

 

[innominate]

A gunsmith would blow you off. An armorer replaces parts. They might be able to tell you if a part is defective, but they're most likely not going to know unless its an extremely obvious problem.

Springs deforming after a thousand rounds, or metal deforming after a thousand rounds would only be noticed if the problem has already manifested.

Please read some of my other replies. The 320 had a TDP. A Technical Data Package. That is proprietary information that sig has on how to build the 320. If you get this information, be it if you steal it from sig, or you reverse engineer the gun, compile said information and leak it, sig will sue you.

They will sue the shit out of you

Maybe if you're really lucky, they'll take mercy and slap you with an air tight NDA.

Literally every company will handle that situation that way. Colt, Beretta, Sig, HK. Usually guns that have Gov't contracts like the M4, M17/M18 are far more closely protected than say, a mossberg maverick 88

i am not saying it can't be investigated, but not at the cost of sending a 600 dollar pistol to a VERY EXPENSIVE smith for information you won't be able to do anything with, especially if sig were to go after the gunsmith who the gun was taken to. Do you know gunsmiths? I do. It's extremely low margins for actual smithing, and extremely long lead times. Having to get involved in litigation is something they try their hardest to avoid. .any who would be able to tell you if a sear is foo soft, or a spring is too small will either turn you away, or quote you an astronomical price to get you out of his hair.

You seem to think there's some place you can send a gun off to get a thorough read out of all the critical parts. Detailed breakdowns of the parts metallurgy.

It doesn't exist. Not for you. Not for me. It's there for the people who *need it*, and can afford it.

You are a fanboy. By the way you approached this whole thing, to you asking why a guy who has a bad $600 pistol wont spend thousands of his own money to find out something he cant do anything with.

You refuse to hear arguments, and are simply posting nonsense.

I asked why the law firms that are representing these people in the multiple law suits are not paying to have questions about the pistol answered. Not the person who purchased the pistol.