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  • SQLGeek

    Muh state lines
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    If you are paying attention to your driving

    That's the big if. Thing is, cars are driven by people and people can be error prone. Yes even the people that swear they aren't. It's the reason companies have entire HSE/HES divisions.

    I like the newer safety features on my car. They're just another layer of safety that can help. I don't use them as a crutch because at the end of the day I'm the one driving. But shit happens sometimes.

    My grandfather never wanted AC on his cars either but I sure wouldn't go without. Times change.
    Guns International
     

    oldag

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    I don't want a car doing any aspect of driving for me. Nor warning me about anything driving related.

    Besides, has Microsoft code ever had a bug?
     

    etmo

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    So, why ain't all this standard on motorcycles?

    Be careful what you wish for...I'm sure some democrats would love to pass a ton of laws forcing all manufacturers to add 100 nanny features, including racial sensitivity training, to all vehicles.

    I don't want a car doing any aspect of driving for me. Nor warning me about anything driving related.

    Besides, has Microsoft code ever had a bug?

    Totally agree on the buggy code thing, and I can tell you a long story about how Tesla's machine learning code for their self-driving feature almost got a test driver into some danger if you ever have trouble falling asleep.

    But, eventually, code becomes mature and reasonably safe. And that's when self-driving cars will become mandatory. During "work hours", in certain busy cities, you can bet that self-driving cars will become required by law. It'll solve traffic issues immediately, save gas, reduce pollution, save millions of hours of people's lives, and the insurance companies will save billions, which will be the main force behind these new laws. Coming soon to a democrat party platform near you!
     

    rotor

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    I'd say the No 1 killer of most driver's is just plain ole STUPIDITY! In the 35 years that I drove 18 wheeler's, I've seen it all. And in the end, It all comes down to driver's doing stupid things behind the wheel instead of driving their vehicle's.

    Our Government / NHTSA and the Insurance companies are just making people dumber by mandating all these electronic nannies in vehicle's. The more stuff that takes control over what driver's should be doing in the first place,the less driver's pay attention to what they're doing behind the wheel.
    Agree, drivers doing stupid things behind the wheel instead of driving. What you call electronic nannies I call electronic aids. Things like blind spot warning are alerts not nannies. You drove 18 wheelers, how would you like doing that without mirrors? We all do better with assistance, either physical or electronic alerts. I don't want to see electronics driving our cars such as the old story of Prius runaways (or human error) but emergency braking when a collision is about to occur I like.
     

    benenglish

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    One absolute non-negotiable requirement for me is KNOBS for radio volume and tuning. Also, I require separate controls for the air conditioning system (NOT some touch screen nonsense).
    Well-designed interiors that put everything on the touch screen will also have redundant radio and a/c buttons/knobs. The car companies that fail to do so are getting lots of pushback and are learning their lessons.
    Your nickname seems to be a misnomer.
    I don't think so. Heck, his little girl is smarter than 90% of the adults I know.
    At the very least, separate the freeway lanes by a skills-based driver's license.
    Uh, no. Hell, no. I think you're joking but if you're not...

    The last time I obviously totaled a car, the multi-vehicle accident happened 4 lanes away from me and one of the involved cars simply shot out of that mess at 90 degrees to the direction of traffic. I was nowhere near the wreck yet, in a flash, my passenger door had been pushed in a couple of feet. Oddly, that 77 Lincoln Town Car was still drivable, but that's another story.

    Lane separation won't help keep people safe when some highly skilled driver in your no-limits left lane makes a minor mistake. That will happen and, when it does, everyone on the road will pay the price.
    Our Government / NHTSA and the Insurance companies are just making people dumber by mandating all these electronic nannies
    Probably true and that can happen to anyone at any age. However, for people who learned without "these electronic nannies", it's possible to use them simply to help and not as a crutch...
    They're just another layer of safety that can help. I don't use them as a crutch
    ...as others have noted.

    Still, I worry for the future. Specifically...
    The more crutches, the worse the driver. People begin to rely on the car's "ability" to save them from themselves and their poor driving ability - or desire to drive.
    ...the way some younger kids learn to drive is disheartening to me. Remember how your parents wouldn't let you drive unless you knew how to gas up or change a tire or whatever they thought was important? That doesn't seem to be the case anymore.

    I'm reminded of these Photoshop wizards who know how to use the dodge and burn tools but don't have the foggiest idea how they got those names. Personally, I made my own dodging and burning tools to use in my own darkroom 50 years ago. I understand the electronic tools so much better because I know what they are intended to do better than the tools they are replacing.

    Without that sort of deep understanding of the history of the technology, I'm afraid newer users just won't "get it" in very real ways.

    For example, my vehicles are old. I would really like that rear cross-traffic warning tech. I don't know how many times I've been parked between a couple of lifted pickups and had no choice but to back out of a space, blind as a bat. In those cases, I know to stand by my car and observe traffic patterns for a bit before I get in. I know to back out slowly. I know to constantly be twisting my body as much as possible to get the earliest possible warning about a vehicle behind me.

    But the newest drivers? Will they appreciate that? Or will they learn to just throw it in gear and back out, trusting the technology to warn them or even apply the brakes when needed?

    And when all these modern marvels that have entered the mainstream in the last 5 or 6 years start to break down, what happens then? Will the kids who learned on those systems have any idea how to adapt to being temporarily without them?

    From this new tech I see marvelous increases in safety stats for people who already know how to drive. I also see other, younger people being burdened, someday, with situations they do not possess the skills to resolve.

    One final note about complexity and repairs that, I believe, applies in spades to this new generation of cars - Decades ago, when the Mitsubishi Diamante first came out, I knew a car salesman. He told me that, as a bigwig with perks, the VP of Service in the dealership took the first one for a few days as a test. When he brought it back, the VP called together all his Service Dept folks and announced it was the best car Mitsubishi had ever produced. He enthusiastically recommended the sales dept sell as many as possible.

    His reasoning? "This car has so much useless shit on it, so many electric gadgets, that my service department will be making a mint off repairs for years and years!"
     

    oldag

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    Agree, drivers doing stupid things behind the wheel instead of driving. What you call electronic nannies I call electronic aids. Things like blind spot warning are alerts not nannies. You drove 18 wheelers, how would you like doing that without mirrors? We all do better with assistance, either physical or electronic alerts. I don't want to see electronics driving our cars such as the old story of Prius runaways (or human error) but emergency braking when a collision is about to occur I like.
    You can use a nanny to help you drive if you wish.

    I will pass. Especially on emergency braking or anything else having to do with the brakes.
     

    FireInTheWire

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    Drivers have a severe sense of protection from their vehicles. This is a fallacy. It's a tin can of death.

    I think it should be required all license holders should have to spend X amount of time driving a motorcycle and a 18 wheeler.

    All the new bells and whistles is just trying to make up for folks severe inability.

    Parents also don't spend enough time teaching kids before they drive. I already have planned to put every one of my kids through a comprehensive driving school. Drivers Ed, then riding with some lady around doing all the "rules" is nonsense. Kids need better teaching of all aspects of driving.
     

    General Zod

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    But the newest drivers? Will they appreciate that? Or will they learn to just throw it in gear and back out, trusting the technology to warn them or even apply the brakes when needed?

    Hell, that's standard operating procedure with half the drivers already, whether there's technology involved or not. Has been for as long as I can remember. My mother never used harsh language when I was a kid, except when she was driving. Especially in parking lots. Because of dumbasses that just back out without warning and without looking.
     

    Brains

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    Well-designed interiors that put everything on the touch screen will also have redundant radio and a/c buttons/knobs. The car companies that fail to do so are getting lots of pushback and are learning their lessons.

    I don't think so. Heck, his little girl is smarter than 90% of the adults I know.
    You're too kind, but I'll let her know you said that. She'll be tickled ;)

    Uh, no. Hell, no. I think you're joking but if you're not...
    Indeed - tongue in cheek humor. I'm not a fan of any licensing, honestly. I'm more of a "remove the warning labels" kind of guy. Just like you cannot legislate compliance, you also cannot license behavior. Germany has significantly tighter licensing restrictions and there are still wrecks on the Autobahn as well as their 50kph city streets. That, to me, shows the solution isn't with licensing.

    ...the way some younger kids learn to drive is disheartening to me. Remember how your parents wouldn't let you drive unless you knew how to gas up or change a tire or whatever they thought was important? That doesn't seem to be the case anymore.
    My kids started learning basic vehicle operation and maintenance pretty much when they born. My youngest LOVES gadgets, but has learned why Dad will refuse to answer any text, any call, play with the in-dash apps, etc. while the car is rolling. All it took was a couple years of "hey son, see that guy playing with his phone? Lets watch him and see how long it takes for him to do something stupid." My kids have all sat on my lap and "drove" the car around the neighborhood from a very young age, parked the car in the garage, etc. When you ultimately send them out on the road on their own, they should already be comfortable in the environment. Worked well for my oldest, almost 6 years on the road so far, no tickets, no accidents, and he maintains the truck himself. No electronic nannies outside of ABS. Got a few years still for the other kids.

    But the newest drivers? Will they appreciate that? Or will they learn to just throw it in gear and back out, trusting the technology to warn them or even apply the brakes when needed?

    And when all these modern marvels that have entered the mainstream in the last 5 or 6 years start to break down, what happens then? Will the kids who learned on those systems have any idea how to adapt to being temporarily without them?

    From this new tech I see marvelous increases in safety stats for people who already know how to drive. I also see other, younger people being burdened, someday, with situations they do not possess the skills to resolve.
    It's a mixed crowd still, but the love of driving and the love of cars is indeed fading. Tesla and their engineers are fully aware of the desire for a large percentage of people wanting their own personal automated transportation vehicle. They don't want to take mass transit for a multitude of reasons, but they don't want to be burdened with driving either.
     

    baboon

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    I didn't read the whole thread, but my take on smart/safe vehicles boils down to crap insurance companies want so they don't have to pay out! Besides that the auto industry makes a killing on parts & repairs.

    When I bought my Nissan P/U in 2000 the salesman was insensed that I didn't want a power seat. I told him its my truck & if it set the seat why would I need an electric seat to fail @ some point? Same deal with power mirrors!

    Unfortunatly we get shit crammed down our throats! I'd didn't want mag wheels, their stereo, a rear sliding window. I was told the stereo & mags were now standard equipment.
     

    rotor

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    If you can read the 600 page manual that comes with your new car and learn how to use the alerts that may save your life you are smart enough to be on the highway nowadays. I don't want a self driving car but I do want the safety features. Be honest though, does your car have power windows, automatic transmission, electric controlled mirrors? I bet it does. Do you need them, no. When that 300 pound hog runs across one of those high speed highways at 3:00 am and your car breaks for you, you become a believer.
     

    benenglish

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    It's a mixed crowd still, but the love of driving and the love of cars is indeed fading.
    I was watching a lecture recently where the lecturer was illustrating the way kids and young adults are different nowadays. One of the big ways he made a point was to ask everyone over 40 (I may have some details wrong) to raise their hand if they got their driver's license at 16. The whole audience raised their hands. He said something to the effect of "When we were kids, you spent your 16th birthday at the DMV, getting your license."

    Then he pointed out that kids nowadays are much less likely to care. They don't desire (or desire or value as much as previous generations) the personal freedom represented by being licensed to drive.

    OT warning from here on...

    He went on to discuss how young folks were less capable of communicating in person, another thing (like driving) that takes courage and a desire to stand up for yourself. He illustrated that with a story about Stormi Daniels. He had been on a TV show with her and there was some down time when he got to simply have a conversation with her, off the record and relaxed. The subject of the way people transition to adulthood was in the air and she had an interesting perspective.

    As you may or may not know, folks in her position tend to make the most money by touring as a feature dancer. During their appearances at clubs, they interact with customers and make money from private dances. Ms. Daniels pointed out that she'd been doing it for more than two decades but in recent years she has been disheartened to find that the average young man, in his early to mid-20s, is simply unable to look her in the eye. Old men still communicate directly. 20 years ago, young men communicated directly. Now? The new males were mostly incapable. It was almost as if they'd rather text her than speak to her.

    The love of cars is fading? Well, if you're incapable to speaking directly to a woman, how are you ever going to have the chutzpah to lay down strips of rubber in front of the school superintendents office? How are you ever going to appreciate the freedom and empowerment that automobiles symbolize?

    I'm struggling, here. I can't find a hopeful tag to put on this post.

    As much as I appreciate the march of technology and improved safety, I still keenly appreciate the viewpoint of those who see in these advancements a surrender of personal agency. And that's just sad.
     

    etmo

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    As much as I appreciate the march of technology and improved safety, I still keenly appreciate the viewpoint of those who see in these advancements a surrender of personal agency. And that's just sad.

    The fact that you appreciate their viewpoint is sad? Or it's sad that people see safety advancements as a surrender of personal agency? Perhaps you're saying sadness comes as a result of appreciating one thing but also appreciating something else?

    Confused...
     

    Axxe55

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    I am not against technology, or safety devices based upon using the latest technology.

    Someone used the word "crutch" which I think accurately describes the attitude of many drivers of these vehicles. I used the term "reliance" upon using them.

    What do you do, when such a feature fails though? Too heavy a reliance upon technology is a bad thing IMO.

    An example: I do use GPS maps on my computer and phone. They are wonderful and I do like them. But, I also still know how to use a map and a compass if technology fails.

    Many of the younger generation are not appreciating what that means. The have placed too much reliance upon technology, expecting it to always be there.

    Something I learned many years ago. Anything designed and built by humans, can and will fail at some point.
     

    benenglish

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    The fact that you appreciate their viewpoint is sad? Or it's sad that people see safety advancements as a surrender of personal agency? Perhaps you're saying sadness comes as a result of appreciating one thing but also appreciating something else?

    Confused...
    Now that I re-read what I wrote, I'm confused, too. I know what I meant but I didn't communicate it very clearly.

    I'll try to address this later. Right now, I need to run an errand in my 20 year old truck that lacks most of the technology cited in this thread. :)
     
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