Staggering different ammo

[AmirFazadh]

Oh, we have fire ants, but I can't shoot 'em....

Get a better scope...

You could shoot 'em, but it pisses off their friends...

 

[Mate]

But the outcome is the same right? Keep pressing the trigger until there is no more threat. It dosent matter if you're a college student or a Navy Seal.

 

[M. Sage]

Pretty much.

Just saw a show last night where they had a team of four ex-mil guys (two of 'em were Force Recon, one a SEAL) up against a lone wolf former ParaRescue guy using simunitions in a scenario in an abandoned hospital. Technique stayed pretty basic during those encounters, even though these guys were highly trained and it wasn't an actual life or death situation. There was a lot of "gun up, shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot... and we run away" going on.

Basically, they'd pull the trigger until they either could or had to move, or until the other guy was "dead". The ParaRescue man fell back on his own training, so there was never an engagement that burned an entire magazine. Shoot and scoot, rinse and repeat.

 

[GI-John]

Pretty much.

Just saw a show last night where they had a team of four ex-mil guys (two of 'em were Force Recon, one a SEAL) up against a lone wolf former ParaRescue guy using simunitions in a scenario in an abandoned hospital. Technique stayed pretty basic during those encounters, even though these guys were highly trained and it wasn't an actual life or death situation. There was a lot of "gun up, shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot... and we run away" going on.

Basically, they'd pull the trigger until they either could or had to move, or until the other guy was "dead". The ParaRescue man fell back on his own training, so there was never an engagement that burned an entire magazine. Shoot and scoot, rinse and repeat.

M.Sage, I am lost. What do you speak of? Is this a CSI type show or some kind of cable special?

 

[Hoji]

Staggering ammo is a waste of time. IMO, it's far better to keep everything uniform and loaded with good quality JHP's. Things like staggering ammo are in the same realm as "counting your shots". Honestly, if the time ever comes that you'd have to use your gun for self defense, you're mind is going to go blank, your eyes are going to bug out of your head, your whole body is going to tense up, etc. You'll never be able to count on remembering which type of bullet is in the chamber, you'll more than likely just keep yanking that trigger until the threat is gone.[/quote]


Not if you train properly. You will fight as you train, period. I train for ammo management all of the time, and I think that if the SHTF, I will instinctively drop the mag after 14 and reload{ I would seriously hope that the threat would be gone after 2 shots and and an assessment}

 

[Hoji]

As if that's not the proper way to do it!

It is not the proper way to do it.

 

[GI-John]

+10000000

it is not the proper way to do it.

thank you

 

[GM.Chief]

I disagree with staggering the ammo simply because of the fact that the FMJ is very likely to overpenetrate and hurt an innocent bystander. Jusy my 2 cents.

 

[DCortez]

I'll stagger ... one in you arm, one in your leg, one in your arse

 

[GI-John]

I disagree with staggering the ammo simply because of the fact that the FMJ is very likely to overpenetrate and hurt an innocent bystander. Jusy my 2 cents.

I would not stagger. I think just the first round at least. Heres something to make ya think. If I hit the bystander with an FMJ(which I should be trying to avoid in the first place) it will at least go all the way through. What happens I hit a bystander with a JHP.... Game over.


By the way, at the next meet and greet i'll be collecting all these "2 cents"

 

[GI-John]

cortez

I'll stagger ... one in you arm, one in your leg, one in your arse

you always have to go for the "arse"?????

 

[Texas42]

I'm neither for staggering ammo nor using fmj's, but I do think that the odd's a round going through one person and seriously injuring another person is rediculously slim.

Does anyone know of any cases where this happened?

I think the odds of missing the intended target and hitting an innocent bystand is much higher.

 

[djspump2003]

If I can help it, I NEVER sit with my back to a door.

yeah - how many famous people have made that mistake and died from it?

 

[Big country]

I'm neither for staggering ammo nor using fmj's, but I do think that the odd's a round going through one person and seriously injuring another person is rediculously slim.

Does anyone know of any cases where this happened?

I think the odds of missing the intended target and hitting an innocent bystand is much higher.

You mean with fmj's or HP's?

 

[Texas42]

You mean with fmj's or HP's?

Really either.

I think a FMJ has a higher probability of going through a person, but the probability of hitting a non-bad guy is very small. I also speculate that the energy of the round would be substantially reduced. I have read that exiting skin takes a lot of energy out, because of the elasticity.

I still wouldn't shoot a guy in a crowd, I just think that people talk about overpenetration a little too much (with respect to most pistols that you use for CHL, my deer rifle on the other hand. . . . .)

 

[Big country]

Either one can and will leave the body of an attacker with enough energy to do some real harm. Like you said tho it is not a rifle round and will not have the same pizazz. But I think you are underestimating the power of a handgun round. Try going to [url]http://www.theboxotruth.com[/URL] and look over some of the stuff they do.

 

[Big country]

Hey that's a good idea High cap.

 

[Wolfwood]

anyone seen the DRT ammo? i forget what it stands for, but in slang people call it "dead right there" it is a jacketed round, HP i believe but the bullet is made of compressed lead powder. sow hen it hit a hard target in compresses, and hold together and can go through hard objects easily, but when it hits a 'wet' target IE bad guys or game, the bullet ttoallt disintegrated transferring 100% of the energy into the wound channel. apparently pretty devastating. i can never find any in stock.
seems liek a happy medium for the car door scenario.

 

[M. Sage]

"DRT" was developed to allow competitive shooters to shoot at steel targets at closer ranges without danger of being wounded by splashback. I really can't believe that it's being marketed as a defensive alternative. Then again, there are people that shell out stupid money for crap like RBCD...

The problem with ammo like DRT, Glaser, RBCD and "pre-fragmented" or whatever they want to call them is that they lack penetration. They're pure, unadulterated snake oil. For example, "energy transfer" is not a big factor in creating a wound. In fact, handgun wounding potential is pretty straight forward: you're going to get a hole the size of the bullet through the person until it exits or stops. Defensive calibers aren't really known for shattering bone - they'll break bones or punch holes, but they won't do the really bad damage that higher-velocity rifle ammo does (anything over 2000 feet per second). I've read more than most gun owners have about wound characteristics and wounding potential and never has "energy transfer" been one of the factors. Truth is, the energy isn't all that high, especially in a handgun. Even if you get 100% energy transfer downrange, it's going to be pretty much equal to the energy you yourself are absorbing when you fire the shot!

Energy transfer is as much BS as "knock-down power". There is a video on youtube (I'll look this weekend if you don't find it yourself first) of an old Second Chance demonstration where they show off their new rifle-rated armor. The guy who founded Second Chance shoots his buddy at point blank range with a FAL while the guy is standing on one foot and he stays on one foot!

All this is along the lines of the whole "bird shot for home defense" BS. Bird shot usually penetrates about 3" making an ugly wound that's way too shallow to do much to stop a badguy.

Get a bullet that will feed and fire reliably. Get a bullet that will be accurate. Get a bullet that will penetrate at least 12 inches in an FBI-style ballistic gelatin test. Anything less, it could be your ass.

Accurate placement, then penetration. Everything after that is icing. I'd use good old FMJ before I used a "pre-fragmented" or "powdered" or whatever BS round that won't punch a hole deep enough.

 

[Libertarian_Longhorn]

I personally load the first 7 rounds with Gold Dot HP's, and the next 6 with standard WWB FMJ's. The way I figure, after the initial contact magazine dump of 7 or so rounds, if the threat is not yet immobilized on the ground, he is going to take cover. I want something that will punch through a car door, studs in drywall etc. I have practiced time and time again with the perceived recoil difference between the HP 147gr. and FMJ 115gr. I think that particuliar combo accomodates most situations. Ideally though, my first round will hit center of mass and neutralize the BG immediately.