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Talking points for new BATFE Rules

Discussion in 'Class III / NFA' started by SC-Texas, Sep 7, 2013.

  1. SC-Texas

    SC-Texas TGT Addict Lifetime Member

    Feb 7, 2009
    Houston, TX
    1. Obama legislating by Executive fiat.
      1. FIAT: an arbitrary decree or pronouncement, especially by a person or group of persons having absolute authority to enforce it: The king ruled by fiat.
      2. The people spoke: No new anti 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] amendment legislation
      3. The congress spoke: No new anti 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] amendment legislation
      4. Obama spoke: I don’t care with congress or the majority of people in America want, I know best.
      5. Obama uses executive power to usurp the power of congress and bypass congress and enact anti 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] amendment legislations and rules.
      6. Obama is proposing a solution that is desperately in search of a problem.
      7. This is the same administration and agency that brought us “Fast and Furious” and made the USA the largest arms supplier to Mexican and central American drug cartels in known history.
      8. This is a clearly malicious act from the Obama/Biden/Holder administration. They are angry that the people and congress would not ban gusn in early 2013 and they are striking at the most unprotected and law abiding segment of firearms owners in the world!
      9. Texas has recently passed laws to allow hunting game animals with silencers.
        1. Texas legalized Hunting with silencers on September 1, 2012.
        2. This new rule is a direct attempt to subvert the will of Texans and Texas lawmakers
        3. This new rule will essentially make it impossible for Texans to exercise the rights recently given them by the Texas legislature because Texans will no longer by ABLE to purchase silencers if their CLEOs refuse to sign their forms.
    2. Criminals
      1. Prohibited persons Using the trust/Corporations to get firearms
      2. Very small percentage of trusts or corporations have felons as settlors, trustees or employees
      3. Very small number of prohibited persons will go through the lengthy process to legally obtain a NFA regulated item
      4. Regular (title I) Firearms: subject the person signing the 4473 to criminal background checks. The person signing the 4473 has the same legal obligation as the Settlor, trustees and beneficiaries of a trust and the officers and employees of a corporation to ensure that a criminal does not possess the firearms owned by that individual or entity.
      5. Over 27,000 silencers are purchased annually
        1. You never hear of one being used in a crime
      6. Same with machineguns and short barrel rifles, destructive devices and other items that are regulated by the NFA.
    3. Prevents hearing damage:
      1. Hearing protection for shooters.
      2. Silencers protect the hearing of both the person shooting and persons nearby
      3. Even with hearing protection being worn, shooters hearing may be damaged. Bystanders near persons shooting may have their hearing permanently damaged.
      4. The use of silencers significantly reduces hearing loss for those adults and children participating in shooting sports.
    4. Noise signature reduction
      1. SELF DEFENSE:
        1. God forbid that I am involved in a self defense situation in my home, with my wife and children at my home with my dogs, but shooting a pistol or rifle in my home unsuppressed WILL cause permanent hearing damage to everyone around.
        2. My two boys(2 & 4 years old), my wife and my dog would all suffer permanent hearing damage if I had to discharge a firearm to save their life or my life inside my home.
        3. A silenced firearm would greatly reduce the possibility and Amount of hearing loss from this unfortunate situation.
      2. Hunting:
        1. Protects the hearing of the hunters
        2. Protects other hunters by allowing greater situational awareness.
          1. The hunter does not have to wear hearing protection so he is more aware of the surrounding situation and may hear other hunters thereby reducing accidents
          2. The hunter will suffer less hearing loss over a lifetime and will be more aware of the surrounding situation as he or she ages.
        3. Silenced firearms are much less likely to disturb people, livestock, or wildlife that are in close proximity to the shooting facility or location.
        4. Greatly lessons the noise pollution on the environment.
        5. Texas has recently passed laws to allow hunting game animals with silencers.
          1. Texas legalized Hunting with silencers on September 1, 2012.
          2. This new rule is a direct attempt to subvert the will of Texans and Texas lawmakers
          3. This new rule will essentially make it impossible for Texans to exercise the rights recently given them by the Texas legislature because Texans will no longer by ABLE to purchase silencers if their CLEOs refuse to sign their forms.
      3. Predator and Pest Eradication
        1. Texas is being overrun with wild hogs.
        2. They cause uncounted amounts of economic and environmental damage each year
        3. Silencers and Short Barrel rifles are important for hog and predator control
      4. Training new shooters
        1. Training safety
        2. Protects new shooters hearing
        3. Ensures accuracy of communication with new shooters while in a teaching environment
      5. Shooting ranges public and private
        1. Silencers greatly reduce the noise impact of a shooting range on its surrounding environment.
        2. Silencers Protect the employee’s hearing and the customer’s hearing.
        3. Silencers generally increase the accuracy of a host firearm.
        4. Silencers generally reduce recoil and eliminating up to 90% of the muzzle signature.
        5. Allows the Shooter to concentrate on breath control and trigger pull because they are not subjected to the fatigue and distraction of a deafening, bright, muzzle report.
        6. Beginning shooters are less likely to be intimidated when introduced to the shooting sports with a silenced firearm.
        7. Beginning shooters are able to easily hear instructions given to them by trainers as the report of a host firearm is reduced to below the OSHA guideline level for hearing damage.
    5. Disabled shooters
      1. Short barrel rifles: Some shooters have lost upper body strength due to wounds and /or disease. These shooters CANNOT participate in the shooting sports or use weapons for self defense can't manage a longer barrel and extra weight of a title I rifle with a 16” barrel.
      2. Recoil reduction: Silencers reduce recoil.
    6. CLEO Sign off:
      1. CLEO:
        1. Sheriff
        2. Chief of Police
        3. District Attorney
        4. County and District Court Judges
        5. NOT Constables
      2. CLEO won't sign in most counties
        1. The simple fact is that MOST CLEOS in the stte of Texas (and most other states) will not sign a form 4 even now.
        2. Most refuse to sign for political reasons.
          1. They state that if a person they signed a form 1 or form 4 for used the NFA regulated item in a crime it would look bad for them.
          2. It would be used against them in an election campaign.
          3. If they are chiefs of police departments, they state that if an item that they signed for was used in a criminal act that it would be used against the person that appointed/Hired them at the next election.
        3. They also cite additional Administrative reasons for refusing to sign a form 1 or a form 4
          1. Additional administrative burden.
          2. Use of administrative staff for non-Law enforcement duties
          3. Use of Law enforcement staff for non-law enforcement duties
          4. Meeting with the applicant (now applicants on trusts and corporations)
          5. Doing background checks on each applicant to ensure the person providing the fingerprint cards and photographs is actually the person standing before them
          6. Additional Record Keeping: Keeping track of the persons and entities that they signed for.
          7. Many if not all of these SLEOs believe that
            1. Civilians should not own items that are regulated by the NFA
            2. Items regulated by the NFA are illegal for civilians to own.
            3. Only Law enforcement agencies should possess items regulated by the NFA
            4. They refuse to sign forms because they are putting items that may be used against their officers into NON-Law enforcement officer hands (i.e. the hands of mere civilians)
        4. The new rules place an even heavier burden on law enforcement than the current rule because each member of a trust or corporate entity would have to seek a CLEO sign off from his local CLEO

  2. SC-Texas

    SC-Texas TGT Addict Lifetime Member

    Feb 7, 2009
    Houston, TX
    1. One reason people put additional trustees on their trusts and corporations is due to the archaic laws regarding transfer and possession of items regulated by the national firearms act.
    2. The person may not transfer the NFA regulated item.
    3. However, if he is married or has children or other persons living in the home with him, all of these people may have access to the items regulated by the national firearms act and may be subject to prosecution by the BATFE for being in possession of an item that is not registered to them.
    4. The Trust/Corporation entity easily prevents this from being even a remote possibility:
    5. Here are some common and actual scenarios that the new rules fail to recognize:
    6. WHAT is the CLEO won't sign and the registered owner:
      1. Elderly Mother moves in
      2. Get married, new wife moves in
      3. Girlfriend moves in
      4. Fiancé moves in
      5. Roommate moves In
      6. Daughter moves in
      7. Son loses job or graduates school. moves in
      8. Daughter turns 18 and doesn't move out
      9. Son turns 18 and doesn't move out
      10. father moves in
      11. Brother loses job and moves in
      12. Sister loses job and moves in
      13. Nephews and Nieces lose home and move in
    7. Economic Impact:
    8. Law Enforcement Agencies
    9. Individuals
      1. Time from work
      2. Lost wages
      3. Cost
      4. Mileage
    10. FFLS
      1. Lost sales
      2. Inventory that is in stock and they cannot sell
      3. Increased transaction costs
      4. Refunds for people who cannot get CLEO signoff
      5. Entire market segment wiped away with the stroke of a pen
      6. Ale staff laid off
    11. FFL-Manufacturers
      1. Lost investment in machines
      2. Lost investment in inventory that they cannot sell
      3. Manufacturing and sales staff laid off
      4. No market for their product
    12. Have clients and all trustees and Settlors and adult beneficiary approach their local chiefs of police and sheriffs. Document their refusals, by name, agency, date and location. This will be used in the comment on the rule
  3. SC-Texas

    SC-Texas TGT Addict Lifetime Member

    Feb 7, 2009
    Houston, TX
    anything I missed? Who are the NFA manufacturers in texas?
  4. SC-Texas

    SC-Texas TGT Addict Lifetime Member

    Feb 7, 2009
    Houston, TX
    1. Texas Manufacturers:
      1. Johns Guns
      2. Hodge Defense
      3. Shooters Depot
      4. Jet Suppressors
      5. Templar Tactical
      6. NFA Investments
      7. Dreadnaught Industries LLC
      8. Shark Suppressors
      9. Houston Armory
      10. JDW Manufacturing
  5. SC-Texas

    SC-Texas TGT Addict Lifetime Member

    Feb 7, 2009
    Houston, TX
    Shark suppressors
  6. SC-Texas

    SC-Texas TGT Addict Lifetime Member

    Feb 7, 2009
    Houston, TX
  7. SC-Texas

    SC-Texas TGT Addict Lifetime Member

    Feb 7, 2009
    Houston, TX
    Good Morning!
    Bad news arrived this week. The Obama Administration announced sweeping gun control by executive order, bypassing congress and in normal democrat fashion, proposing a solution for which there is no problem!
    I KNOW this is a long read, but this is very important to us and our community and our children. Please wade through everything and the links
    Comments END: This article has a comment period that ends in 93 days (12/09/2013)
    The new proposed rule was brought about by none other than some of our own, Machinegun collectors in the NFATCA proposed a rule to the Obama Administration claiming that corporations and Trusts needed more regulation. More on this later.
    This is the Text of the rule: Proposed Federal Rule
    The most often asked question over the past week has been:
    Will this proposed regulation remove trusts as legal entities to own National Firearms Act firearms:
    No. The definition of a person was defined by Congress and cannot be modified by an administrative agency. See 26 U.S.C. § 7701. This law defines the term person. "(1) Person.-The term 'person' shall be construed to mean and include an individual, a trust, estate, partnership, association, company or corporation.".
    Trusts, corporations, LLCs and other legal fictitious entities remain valid entities for purposes of owning, possessing and holding National Firearms Act firearms.
    However, if you cannot get a CLEO signoff, this new rule will essentially cut off your ability to purchase additional items regulated by the National Firearms Act.
    What can We do About this?
    COMMENT on the proposed rule. Have each person that is listed on your trust submit a comment. this means that EACH Settlor, trustee and beneficiary that can write should submit a comment on the proposed rule at the link above.
    Further, EACH person listed on your trust should contact his or her senators, congressional representatives and state representatives and alert them that the Obama Administration is attempting to bypass congress and usurp congressional power by executive legislation. Remind them that congress rejected additional anti 2nd Amendment legislation and Obama is thwarting the will of the people and congress.
    NOTE. DO NOT SIMPLY send the FCIG sample letters which are linked below. I AM ASKING that you thoroughly review the sample letter.
    I AM ASKING that you modify it. Explain your circumstances and background and situation.
    I AM ASKING that you discuss how this proposed rule, if enacted, would effect you. Please personalize the letter with examples fro your life.
    If you have a prior relationship with your elected representatives, Please take the time to contact them directly and speak to them.
    I AM ASKING YOU TO NOTE that Form letters have very little impact on our Representatives.
    It is imperative that everyone who is a member of a trust or corporation (including officers, managing members, Settlors, trustees, contingent trustees and beneficiaries ALL take the time to educate our elected representatives regarding this rule/
    I AM ASKING that each of you, my clients and friends, and the members of your trusts make the elected representatives aware that EACH OF YOU took time and effort in preparing the letters and emails and that EACH OF YOU expect a coherent and thoughtful response.
    I AM ASKING that EACH OF YOU be VERY clear to all of your Representatives that you are their constituent and their decision on this matter will have an effect on the next election cycle.
    Federal Elected Representatives:
    Locate the name and contact information for your Federal Senator here:
    U.S. Senate: Senators Home
    You can download a sample copy of the letter FICG has prepared for Senators HERE- Word Document format letter
    Locate the name and contact information for your Federal Representatives here:
    Directory of Representatives ·
    You can download a sample copy of the letter FICG has prepared for House Representatives HERE is the word document format letter
    State Elected Representatives:
    I believe that it is also important to contact Governor Perry and your state representatives and senators. It became legal to hunt with suppressors in the state of Texas in September of 2012.
    This executive rule by Obama is subverting the will of the people of the state of Texas and the legislators of the state of Texas.
    Your Texas representatives may be located here by typing in your address.
    Find your Texas elected officials
    Governor Rick Perry is very concerned about this rule as he is an avid hunter and National Firearms Act owner. Please contact his office here:
    Phone: (512) 463-5739
    Fax: (512) 463-5745
    You can download a sample copy of the letter FICG has prepared for your State Representatives and Officials here. Letter to State representative and Gov. Perry here Please modify this letter as necessary so we do not look illiterate.
    CLEO Signoff: I ask EVERYONE to do a couple of things regarding the CLEO signoff. Please take the time to go in person to the sheriff and chief of police and ask them to sign a form 4 for each of you. Email the agencies and ask them if they sign off on form 4s. When they refuse, note the person you talked to and the date and time of the rejection. Include this in your comments.
    Once your CLEO refuses to sign off for you and each person on your corporation, LLC, Family Limited Partnership and or Trust, Please download this letter and modify as needed and submit to the ATF. Here is the CLEO Denial Letter in Word format
    3. FFLs: Guys, we need to fight this for our customers, clients and our business. We need to discuss the economic impact of this ruling: Letter to the ATF for FFLS
    Joshua Prince and the FICG has provided these initial letters and he succinctly stated "As you can see, if the National Firearms Act community stands together, in solidarity, we can successfully oppose ATF’s new initiative and ensure that our grandchildren still have the same rights and protections that we currently enjoy."
    National Firearms Act Trust Facebook page:
    If you have a Facebook account, Please check this page out and join the page as a "Friend".
    I am using this page to communicate interesting news to everyone. I am still trying to get more traffic on this page.
    Please add it as a friend if you have an account on facebook.
    Texas Gun Trust Facebook Page
  8. SC-Texas

    SC-Texas TGT Addict Lifetime Member

    Feb 7, 2009
    Houston, TX
    Sorry for the lonfg posts. I would like a list of all NFA dealers that you guys know of.

    I also would like help compliing a second list of all NFA manufcturers in TExas that are actually making stuff.
  9. hkusp1

    hkusp1 TGT Addict TGT Supporter

    Mar 25, 2009
    Silenced America.

    Sent from a creepy ass cracka.
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2013
  10. ScorpionHunter

    ScorpionHunter Active Member

    Aug 22, 2012
    Thanks Sean. This is very helpful. I don't want to hijack the thread, but there are two legal issues about this proposed rule that have been bugging me.

    1) Trust law defines things pretty clearly, and those definitions are used in courts, by the IRS, etc. The NFA's proposal of a "responsible person", which could be anyone named in the trust, seems like it could be used as a precedent for other trust cases about taxes, fiduciary responsibility, etc. The times I've seen "responsible person" in trusts have been about IRS cases describing a person as having actual responsibilities for managing a trust, as opposed to someone with just a title. Is the NFA writing trust law by creating this new "responsible person"?

    2) Trustees are responsible for managing the assets of the trust equitably for all beneficiaries. If NFA requires trustees and beneficiaries to get CLEO sign off, what would happen if two beneficiaries can but another can't? Would the trust have to transfer the suppressor, for example, out of the trust to one specific beneficiary? And if so, does that mean the trustee may be liable for not managing the assets of the trust fairly? It seems like this rule could create all sorts of unintended legal consequences that would exponentially increase the expected costs of implementing it.

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