Terminal Wounding Ballistics 101 *NSFW*

[308nato]

http://www.liquibyte.com/image/officer.pdf

Warning: Morgue photos of shot individual contained in link.

 

[kingofwylietx]

Dang.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

Graphic to say the least. Don't look if you are the least bit squeamish.

 

[308nato]

I know its not for everyone but I posted this for the information on
the type of ammo that was used and the sumations on what worked
and what didn't work so well.
Sorry if I grossed anyone out.
Mods if you think its to much for folks go ahead and delete.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

Naw, it's no biggie. I just threw NSFW in the title to make sure no one "accidentally" clicks something they don't really want to see. I think any serious student of self defense does need to see stuff like this and research it. It may be nasty but, it's better to learn now as opposed to the hard way. Although it's kind of annoying seeing crazy examples like this as just when I'm starting to feel perfectly sufficient with a caliber like 9mm or something, an example like this comes along and gives me that feeling I need .500sw or bigger. lol

Man, this guy put up a pretty serious fight. They should have busted out a full auto Spas 15 with 20rd drum mags and 3.5" magnum slugs or something lol. The human body is damn resilient, that's for sure. That also goes to show you that when you put your mind to something, like say surviving, that alone can sometimes be the determining factor on whether you survive or not. I guess the moral of the story is don't give up, you can do more than you think you can and can deal with more than you think you can. Pretty amazing stuff. And to think there are plenty of people that still believe this universe is just one big accident (nothing against any atheists here).

 

[cowboy45]

Shot placement is critical. Learn, and practice, not to spray and pray.Dont be too concerned with the fact that you only have 7 rounds or 15. IMHO, if you think high cap is the way to go against the bad guy, (1-2) you, plan on missing alot. Be certain and be accurate and be fast.

 

[DCortez]

In fairness to the cop's placement, the suspect was shooting back.

Was an interesting read 308.

 

[cowboy45]

Fairness, being shot at?? I quote from another individual"If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics "SUCK".

 

[DCortez]

To quote the film critics in Hollywood Shuffle:
Make my day? Would 50 bullets up your a$$ make your day?

I'd say that guy got his day made, lol

 

[Texas1911]

Shot placement is critical. Learn, and practice, not to spray and pray.Dont be too concerned with the fact that you only have 7 rounds or 15. IMHO, if you think high cap is the way to go against the bad guy, (1-2) you, plan on missing alot. Be certain and be accurate and be fast.

Shot placement was good in this shootout. He was hit in the throat, chest, and abdomen several times by .223 and .40 caliber rounds. The rounds themselves, especially the pistol rounds did not work as advertised.

The pistol caliber rounds had trouble penetrating his heavy clothing, and the rifle caliber rounds simply passed through. He seemed to be hiding behind cover which prevented a solid shot. If anything this proves the limited abilities of the various firearms used in certain situations.

I think personally that the LE community should be using a larger caliber rifle where they can utilize expanding munitions. Something like a .450 Bushmaster or .50 Beowulf could easily be retrofitted to existing hardware, and the round would probably be more effective on soft targets, whilst retaining it's hard target potential. It's not like LEOs are engaging targets 300 - 400 yards away in an urban environment.

 

[Darkwind]

or a good old-fashioned buckshot sandwich

 

[ReVrEnD_0341]

It's not the caliber that they were shooting that is the problem. It's the bullet they were using. There are numerous loads out there that are far far FAR superior than gold dot and TAP ammunition.

They got freaking lucky. 107 rounds in 3.5 minutes is simply spray and pray. They need to get back to training.

 

[okie556]

It's not the caliber that they were shooting that is the problem. It's the bullet they were using. There are numerous loads out there that are far far FAR superior than gold dot and TAP ammunition.

They got freaking lucky. 107 rounds in 3.5 minutes is simply spray and pray. They need to get back to training.

I agree with your first statement about far superior ammo but having been in this situation before in a far off land.........don't condemn spray & pray until you have tried it! As pointed out earlier........this target was shooting back......from cover.

Okie556

 

[Texas42]

Shot placement was good in this shootout. He was hit in the throat, chest, and abdomen several times by .223 and .40 caliber rounds. The rounds themselves, especially the pistol rounds did not work as advertised.

Really, only two shots were good. The one to his throat and the one that got his aorta.

This is my, lowly, first year of medical student opinion. The rest were abominal shots. As I get it, if you miss the major arteries (abodminal aorta, common/external/internal illiacs), spinal cord, or the kidneys you are just going to hit bowels and some of the smaller, gut arteries. While they aren't small and will kill you eventually, it won't stop you. Shattering the pelvic bone wouldn't do you any good. Knock you down and immobilize you, but I don't think it would have stopped you quickly.

The aorta shot with the 223 is what probably killed him. . . .

The throat shot is a little supprising. There is alot of goodies in the throat. Lots of nerves, arteries, and veins and most of them are very large and pretty superficial.

The Busted humerous would probably effect this ability to fight, but not kill him.

I'm not arguing that the bullets didn't work properly, it just seems that only a couple of those shots were actually good shots.

I'm not claiming to be an expert on gunshot wounds or ballistics. I just have a basic grasp of anatomy and only two or three of the shots seemed to be shots that could have stopped the BD had the bullets worked, in my unexperienced opinion.

1" penetration leaves me kind of flabbergasted. Was he wearing a flak jacket? I was under the impression that bulky clothing STOPED a HP from expanding, not made it expand ealier. According to the report, most of the handgun bullets expanded. Interesting.


I got some 115g critical defense (Hornady, and it was all they had). While I think they would be better than gold dot, I'll certainly be looking for the larger grain bullets.

 

[Texas42]

How did they come to the conclusion that the 40's didn't fail (20th of 21 slide)?

I think 1" penetration constitutes failure.

 

[DCortez]

I think 1" penetration constitutes failure.

That's what she said :sign0101:

 

[M. Sage]

How did they come to the conclusion that the 40's didn't fail (20th of 21 slide)?

I think 1" penetration constitutes failure.

IIRC, the BG was under cover, so they were shooting through a barrier.

Also, I've heard several stories of people being hit in the neck and living. I guess there's also a lot of space in the neck that's only muscle. Someone posted a video here about a guy who was a store owner that decided to fight back, in one of his three gunfights over the years, he was hit in the neck but the bullet missed everything vital. The way he put it was that it was basically two bandaids and back to work the next day.

 

[Big country]

I would think that if he was behind a barrier the 40 rounds would not preform properly.

 

[claymore504]

I would think that if he was behind a barrier the 40 rounds would not preform properly.

Exactly. I feel that there is no perfect round. LE and civilians use HP ammo because it stops personell better than FMJ and it is safer as it does not exit and keep going. But, then what if a the BG is behind cover or in a vehicle...FMJ would be better. Military use FMJ and it works awsome when sh*t head in the man dress you are firing at is in a vehicle or ducking behind some cover. But, when you get a direct hit the round goes right threw him which may leave him still fighting...unless you scored a hit with a M2 or 240B!! LOL Anyways, Since those LEOs had HP ammunition I feel they handled it correctly (not that I have ever been LE and been in that situation). Providing suppresive fire was a good move. It most likely caused the Bg to not get very many aimed shots on them. Maybe have the M4 in the trunk of the cruiser loaded with FMJ for situations when the HP pistol rounds are not working. Or like a previous poster said, have it chambered with a larger caliber. As for the 40 performance, I think this is no reason to question it. This situation is why I think some LEOs prefer 357SIG to other rounds.

 

[Big country]

I think you're right claymore504, I would not expect a .40 HP to preform properly after going threw a barrier of anything other than paper or light clothing. They were not designed to shoot threw barrier's, the .357 Sig's were.