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  • Hoji

    Bowling-Pin Commando
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    I'd like to hear a definition of best.
    Yeah. A lot of the “tactical” stuff is fun, but has almost a zero percent chance to be applied in the life of the average person that carries.

    Outside of the basic LTC class, what I generally teach/train is how to defeat retention/concealment and get shots on target.

    Deadly force encounters are overwhelmingly at a distance of 6 feet or less.

    That being said, I have a blast every time I have taken an instructor level “tacticool” course. I just enjoy them. I would never in a million years try to pass myself of as an “operator instructor” though.
     

    Axxe55

    Retiretgtshit stirrer
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    Dec 15, 2019
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    Yeah. A lot of the “tactical” stuff is fun, but has almost a zero percent chance to be applied in the life of the average person that carries.

    Outside of the basic LTC class, what I generally teach/train is how to defeat retention/concealment and get shots on target.

    Deadly force encounters are overwhelmingly at a distance of 6 feet or less.

    That being said, I have a blast every time I have taken an instructor level “tacticool” course. I just enjoy them. I would never in a million years try to pass myself of as an “operator instructor” though.

    Thank you Hoji. that was a very well put statement. I totally agree with you.

    Many instructors push the "tactical" techniques, suited for LE or military, that have IMO no practical usage for 99% of civilians needing self defense training. Many people, not knowing any different, especially those new to guns, automatically think because a trainer/instructor that was in LE or the military, then they must be a good one.
     

    Hoji

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    Thank you Hoji. that was a very well put statement. I totally agree with you.

    Many instructors push the "tactical" techniques, suited for LE or military, that have IMO no practical usage for 99% of civilians needing self defense training. Many people, not knowing any different, especially those new to guns, automatically think because a trainer/instructor that was in LE or the military, then they must be a good one.
    I have a particular fondness for combat shotgun instructor courses. Lots of fun.
     

    BuzzinSATX

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    Dec 20, 2013
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    Thank you Hoji. that was a very well put statement. I totally agree with you.

    Many instructors push the "tactical" techniques, suited for LE or military, that have IMO no practical usage for 99% of civilians needing self defense training. Many people, not knowing any different, especially those new to guns, automatically think because a trainer/instructor that was in LE or the military, then they must be a good one.

    So other than basic M16/M4/M9 qualification and refresher classes in the AF (which are VERY basic), my only point of reference for weapons training are my three Gunsite classes. All were 5 full days. Two basic handgun (250) and one intermediate handgun (350) classes.

    Lots of repetition. Lots of focus on safe gun handling. A lot of repetition on basics of using the front sight (pre RD days), focused trigger press, consistent grip, basic weapon manipulation/malfunction drills, reloading, and shooting from different positions (mostly standing, but some kneeling and prone) to expose the shooter to things they rarely get at a square range.

    We dabbled in tactics and cleared a shoot house and a gully. It didn't make me an expert, but it did expose me to doing in in a live fire (one way) situation. Made me think about nooks and crannies where folks can hide...what's around the corner...using glass and mirrors to see behind walls...what hand to open a door with and where to best stand, depending on how the door opens.

    I thought it opened my eyes to concepts I'd not have gotten on a range or in gun competitions.

    YMMV
     

    Fun Guns LLC

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    Industry Partner
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    Jun 25, 2019
    45
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    So other than basic M16/M4/M9 qualification and refresher classes in the AF (which are VERY basic), my only point of reference for weapons training are my three Gunsite classes. All were 5 full days. Two basic handgun (250) and one intermediate handgun (350) classes.

    Lots of repetition. Lots of focus on safe gun handling. A lot of repetition on basics of using the front sight (pre RD days), focused trigger press, consistent grip, basic weapon manipulation/malfunction drills, reloading, and shooting from different positions (mostly standing, but some kneeling and prone) to expose the shooter to things they rarely get at a square range.

    We dabbled in tactics and cleared a shoot house and a gully. It didn't make me an expert, but it did expose me to doing in in a live fire (one way) situation. Made me think about nooks and crannies where folks can hide...what's around the corner...using glass and mirrors to see behind walls...what hand to open a door with and where to best stand, depending on how the door opens.

    I thought it opened my eyes to concepts I'd not have gotten on a range or in gun competitions.

    YMMV
    Agreed. Another big thing in home defense is Pie-ing before entering and exiting a room and sectors of fire, fatal funnel, etc. Also what to look out for. For example, location of door hinges, etc. as you mentioned. Those are great courses to attend, but not the ones where they have you running and gunning and shooting upside down while laying on your back.
     

    Axxe55

    Retiretgtshit stirrer
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    0   0   0
    Dec 15, 2019
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    Lost in East Texas Elhart Texas
    So other than basic M16/M4/M9 qualification and refresher classes in the AF (which are VERY basic), my only point of reference for weapons training are my three Gunsite classes. All were 5 full days. Two basic handgun (250) and one intermediate handgun (350) classes.

    Lots of repetition. Lots of focus on safe gun handling. A lot of repetition on basics of using the front sight (pre RD days), focused trigger press, consistent grip, basic weapon manipulation/malfunction drills, reloading, and shooting from different positions (mostly standing, but some kneeling and prone) to expose the shooter to things they rarely get at a square range.

    We dabbled in tactics and cleared a shoot house and a gully. It didn't make me an expert, but it did expose me to doing in in a live fire (one way) situation. Made me think about nooks and crannies where folks can hide...what's around the corner...using glass and mirrors to see behind walls...what hand to open a door with and where to best stand, depending on how the door opens.

    I thought it opened my eyes to concepts I'd not have gotten on a range or in gun competitions.

    YMMV

    For the most part, I think many instructors/trainers are con men! They are cashing in on people who know no different. Many are sometimes former military or LE, and many times people think that these people are "experts" in the field of training for self defense. I disagree. Simply because tactics used in the military and LE are many times not applicable to civilian situations.

    A trainer or instructor that focus' on gun safety, safe gun handling and the operation of firearms, and basic marksmanship is more beneficial to the average person seeking instruction. Someone who is teaching Situational Awareness, in how to avoid having to ever use your firearm in the first place.
     

    TxKronik

    New Member
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    Jul 31, 2019
    33
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    San Antonio
    For the most part, I think many instructors/trainers are con men! They are cashing in on people who know no different. Many are sometimes former military or LE, and many times people think that these people are "experts" in the field of training for self defense. I disagree. Simply because tactics used in the military and LE are many times not applicable to civilian situations.

    A trainer or instructor that focus' on gun safety, safe gun handling and the operation of firearms, and basic marksmanship is more beneficial to the average person seeking instruction. Someone who is teaching Situational Awareness, in how to avoid having to ever use your firearm in the first place.

    As a for LEO and trainer LE and Private I agree with you 99% of what I learned for LE does not apply to civilian self defense/home defense. I was an FTO and I spent more time teaching my roomies how to avoid the gun fight then how to win it. Like you said situational awareness can eliminate almost any need for it even in the LE world.
     

    Axxe55

    Retiretgtshit stirrer
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    Dec 15, 2019
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    Lost in East Texas Elhart Texas
    As a for LEO and trainer LE and Private I agree with you 99% of what I learned for LE does not apply to civilian self defense/home defense. I was an FTO and I spent more time teaching my roomies how to avoid the gun fight then how to win it. Like you said situational awareness can eliminate almost any need for it even in the LE world.

    I know that I'm getting older, a little slower, and not anywhere as strong or have the stamina as I did thirty something years ago. I hope that being older, and hopefully wiser, that will overcome what I lack when I was younger.

    Over the years, participating on quite a few gun forums, there was always talk about trainers/instructors and thoughts, and questions on who were the best. Doing some research on my own and looking up their creds, experiences and their methods of training, and their personal perspectives, many I found to focus their training or instruction based upon skills they learned in their respective former careers. Most were basing a training regimen based upon skills that would IMO, be of little to no benefit to a civilian.

    The talked about room clearing, and being able to shoot the bad guys in vehicles, or at longer distances than I would think practical, or even legal in a self defense situation.

    Room clearing? Total BULLCRAP IMO. Unless there is an overwhelming need, it's utterly stupid. The most prudent thing is to hunker in place, with your firearm, and call 911. Not the necessarily the bravest thing, but IMO, definitely the smarter thing to do. Bow if an intruder is in the home and you have other residents in an opposite side of the home that need to be protected, then the dynamics change, and yes, you may need to alter your methods. Nothing is of an absolute IMO.

    Shooting bad guys in vehicles? More BULLCRAP IMO. Unless there is some overwhelming need, pure nonsense. Once the intruders have left the home, they are in most states no longer considered a threat. Pursuit outside the home and then engaging the intruders in a vehicle, just moved you from a defender of your castle, and protector of your loved ones, to the aggressor. That doesn't play out well with LE or in court. Now, IF a situation is that an intruder has taken a loved one hostage and they are being drug to a vehicle and an attempt is being made to leave, again, dynamics have changed, and adapting to that is the key factor.

    Engaging bad guys at longer distances. More BULLCRAP. I would suspect, (and these are MY opinions, and have no factual information to support these opinions.) that 99% of self defense and home defense shootings occur at very close distances. Teaching people to engage targets at 50 to 75 yards or even more, is again utter nonsense IMO. Of the intent of shooting at longer distances is to promote better and more accurate shooting fundamentals, or to build confidence within the shooter that is one thing, and I will agree. (I do practice sometimes at distances which could be construed as more than practical for self defense.) Again, unless there is some overwhelming need, and circumstances, shooting an intruder at fifty yards, explaining that to LE or in court is going to be tough.

    I could go on much more, but I think you get the idea of where I'm coming from, of why I don't personally put a lot of faith or credence in the majority of trainers or instructors. They are cashing in on people's fears and their desires to protect themselves. And the vast majority of people haven't got a clue that they are being duped. Sad.
     

    TxKronik

    New Member
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    0   0   0
    Jul 31, 2019
    33
    11
    San Antonio
    I know that I'm getting older, a little slower, and not anywhere as strong or have the stamina as I did thirty something years ago. I hope that being older, and hopefully wiser, that will overcome what I lack when I was younger.

    Over the years, participating on quite a few gun forums, there was always talk about trainers/instructors and thoughts, and questions on who were the best. Doing some research on my own and looking up their creds, experiences and their methods of training, and their personal perspectives, many I found to focus their training or instruction based upon skills they learned in their respective former careers. Most were basing a training regimen based upon skills that would IMO, be of little to no benefit to a civilian.

    The talked about room clearing, and being able to shoot the bad guys in vehicles, or at longer distances than I would think practical, or even legal in a self defense situation.

    Room clearing? Total BULLCRAP IMO. Unless there is an overwhelming need, it's utterly stupid. The most prudent thing is to hunker in place, with your firearm, and call 911. Not the necessarily the bravest thing, but IMO, definitely the smarter thing to do. Bow if an intruder is in the home and you have other residents in an opposite side of the home that need to be protected, then the dynamics change, and yes, you may need to alter your methods. Nothing is of an absolute IMO.

    Shooting bad guys in vehicles? More BULLCRAP IMO. Unless there is some overwhelming need, pure nonsense. Once the intruders have left the home, they are in most states no longer considered a threat. Pursuit outside the home and then engaging the intruders in a vehicle, just moved you from a defender of your castle, and protector of your loved ones, to the aggressor. That doesn't play out well with LE or in court. Now, IF a situation is that an intruder has taken a loved one hostage and they are being drug to a vehicle and an attempt is being made to leave, again, dynamics have changed, and adapting to that is the key factor.

    Engaging bad guys at longer distances. More BULLCRAP. I would suspect, (and these are MY opinions, and have no factual information to support these opinions.) that 99% of self defense and home defense shootings occur at very close distances. Teaching people to engage targets at 50 to 75 yards or even more, is again utter nonsense IMO. Of the intent of shooting at longer distances is to promote better and more accurate shooting fundamentals, or to build confidence within the shooter that is one thing, and I will agree. (I do practice sometimes at distances which could be construed as more than practical for self defense.) Again, unless there is some overwhelming need, and circumstances, shooting an intruder at fifty yards, explaining that to LE or in court is going to be tough.

    I could go on much more, but I think you get the idea of where I'm coming from, of why I don't personally put a lot of faith or credence in the majority of trainers or instructors. They are cashing in on people's fears and their desires to protect themselves. And the vast majority of people haven't got a clue that they are being duped. Sad.

    I agree 100% with all you said room clearing tactics are for someone who doesn’t know the layout and is looking for a hidden target. I know my house layout and a home invader isn’t hiding from me.

    Long range my ass average shooting is under 7 yards and takes less that 1.2 seconds start to finished.

    Most people live in urban neighborhoods on lots averaging 60x120ft there is no long range need here and if you pull out your deer rifle with 3.5-10x you’ll have a hell of a time justifying self defense

    Vehicles haha most people think their 9 or 40 will penetrate a windshield IT WONT especially not head on the windshield angles are to steep for vehicle aerodynamics low velocity small caliber won’t penetrate no matter how many action movies shows it. (hint shoot down on to the windshield to penetrate need to contact it flat angle)

    If you want to learn skills then learn to draw from deep concealment. Learn to fire accurately from the hip. Learn trigger control.

    Most importantly Learn Zanshin (a state of awareness, of relaxed alertness).

    Most people are so unaware of their surroundings they are screwed before they even realize there is a threat.

    That’s what kept me alive as a cop. And I teach as a trainer.
     

    Hoji

    Bowling-Pin Commando
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    I’ll chime in on engaging shooters at 50+ yards.

    In the DPS School Safety Instructor class the scenario was presented that an active school shooter could very well be at the end of a hallway in a school. It is a viable skill to have, especially if you are a school employee who is entrusted with carrying while at work.
     

    TxKronik

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    Jul 31, 2019
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    I’ll chime in on engaging shooters at 50+ yards.

    In the DPS School Safety Instructor class the scenario was presented that an active school shooter could very well be at the end of a hallway in a school. It is a viable skill to have, especially if you are a school employee who is entrusted with carrying while at work.

    While I agree that the scenario is not unrealistic.

    I would say anyone who would attempt to eliminate a threat 50 yards away in a crowded school filled with panicked victims with a subcompact or compact (for that matter full size) handgun doesn’t have the judgment of someone who should be protecting anyone.

    If they expect teachers to engage like that then they need to go to a urban combat training for a few weeks to learn real cqb and simunitions for live fire exercises with victims and threats to avoid and engage. That is seriously advanced training for the average LTC holder to handle.
     
    Last edited:

    Hoji

    Bowling-Pin Commando
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    While I agree that the scenario is not unrealistic.

    I would say anyone who would attempt to eliminate a threat 50 yards away in a crowded school filled with panicked victims with a subcompact or compact (for that matter full size) handgun doesn’t have the judgment of someone who should be protecting anyone.

    If they expect teachers to engage like that then they need to go to a urban combat training for a few weeks to learn real cqb and simunitions for live fire exercises with victims and threats to avoid and engage. That is seriously advanced training for the average LTC holder to handle.
    Guess you have not seen video of school shooters in a hallway. Every one I have seen the only person standing is the shooter. Not saying that they are expected to engage at that distance, but if the only target that presents itself on an active shooter is at what to most is an extreme distance for a handgun, then being able to hit it would be a decent skill to have.
    Ask Sgt. Johnson;
    https://www.foxnews.com/us/austin-cops-sure-shot-stopped-crazed-gunman
     

    Hoji

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    Hoji, in that scenario, only the active shooter, no hostages, he has already killed people, and all I had was a pistol, and 50 yards or more, YES, I'd take a shot at the POS.
    Being in a hallway actually makes it a lot easier to focus on your target as well. Realistically , the chances of being killed by a doctor’s mistake is far, far greater than ever being in an active shooter situation in a school( or anywhere else in United States ) but if you are going to carry in a school, it is probably a skill you want to develop.
     

    Axxe55

    Retiretgtshit stirrer
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    Being in a hallway actually makes it a lot easier to focus on your target as well. Realistically , the chances of being killed by a doctor’s mistake is far, far greater than ever being in an active shooter situation in a school( or anywhere else in United States ) but if you are going to carry in a school, it is probably a skill you want to develop.

    Active shooter scenario, or going to the doctor? With the active shooter, at least I'm armed!

    Seriously, shooting skills are perishable. A person needs to practice, at least the basics and to stay in tune. Stretching the distances a person practices at is always good.

    I also like to think, that a person can train for every imaginable scenario, and then get bogged down with informational overload! Personally, I like to practice my basic shooting and keep them brushed up, use lots of situational awareness at all times, always be able to adapt and improvise, and to use some common sense and pay attention to my gut instincts.
     

    Hoji

    Bowling-Pin Commando
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    May 28, 2008
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    Active shooter scenario, or going to the doctor? With the active shooter, at least I'm armed!

    Seriously, shooting skills are perishable. A person needs to practice, at least the basics and to stay in tune. Stretching the distances a person practices at is always good.

    I also like to think, that a person can train for every imaginable scenario, and then get bogged down with informational overload! Personally, I like to practice my basic shooting and keep them brushed up, use lots of situational awareness at all times, always be able to adapt and improvise, and to use some common sense and pay attention to my gut instincts.
    Best fight is one you can avoid. But to quote the book of KYFHO;
    “Never initiate force against another. That should be the underlying principle of your life. But should someone do violence to you, retaliate without hesitation, without reservation, without quarter, until you are sure that he will never wish to harm - or never be capable of harming - you or yours again.”

    I have spent a lifetime living by this, and a lifetime practicing/training for it. I think I do ok;)
     

    Axxe55

    Retiretgtshit stirrer
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    Best fight is one you can avoid. But to quote the book of KYFHO;
    “Never initiate force against another. That should be the underlying principle of your life. But should someone do violence to you, retaliate without hesitation, without reservation, without quarter, until you are sure that he will never wish to harm - or never be capable of harming - you or yours again.”

    I have spent a lifetime living by this, and a lifetime practicing/training for it. I think I do ok;)

    Hoji, very similar to the principles I try to live by in regards to personal safety. Well put sir.
     
    Every Day Man
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