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  • avvidclif

    TGT Addict
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    Aug 30, 2017
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    Van Zandt County
    On the distance thing: Years ago we strapped a S&W model 36 (Chief 5 shot 38 SP 2" barrel) into a Ransom Rest. Best I remember at 50 yds it was grouping under 3" using Federal Match 148ge HBWC. So much for barrel length, the biggest difference was sight radius.
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    Axxe55

    Retiretgtshit stirrer
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    Dec 15, 2019
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    Lost in East Texas Elhart Texas
    On the distance thing: Years ago we strapped a S&W model 36 (Chief 5 shot 38 SP 2" barrel) into a Ransom Rest. Best I remember at 50 yds it was grouping under 3" using Federal Match 148ge HBWC. So much for barrel length, the biggest difference was sight radius.

    For many years, I believed that barrel length was an indicator to accuracy. Shorter barrels = less accurate. Longer barrels = more accurate. I was wrong. I read an article in some gun magazine, many years ago where they tested that theory. Don't remember the gun or cartridge used but it was a rifle. They put the gun into rest and zeroed it, then proceeded to shoot groups, then they would shorten the barrel by an inch, then test again. Don't remember exactly how much they ended up cutting off the barrel, but accuracy didn't change as much as expected, or as one would assume.

    After some research on my own, my conclusions came to this. Barrel length by itself isn't a factor in accuracy. But there are many factors that affect accuracy. Quality of the barrel and it's rifling, twist ratio, powder and bullet selection, and probably many more.
     

    Jon Payne

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    Nov 16, 2010
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    Third Coast
    I agree 100% with all you said room clearing tactics are for someone who doesn’t know the layout and is looking for a hidden target. I know my house layout and a home invader isn’t hiding from me.

    Long range my ass average shooting is under 7 yards and takes less that 1.2 seconds start to finished.

    Most people live in urban neighborhoods on lots averaging 60x120ft there is no long range need here and if you pull out your deer rifle with 3.5-10x you’ll have a hell of a time justifying self defense

    Vehicles haha most people think their 9 or 40 will penetrate a windshield IT WONT especially not head on the windshield angles are to steep for vehicle aerodynamics low velocity small caliber won’t penetrate no matter how many action movies shows it. (hint shoot down on to the windshield to penetrate need to contact it flat angle)

    If you want to learn skills then learn to draw from deep concealment. Learn to fire accurately from the hip. Learn trigger control.

    Most importantly Learn Zanshin (a state of awareness, of relaxed alertness).

    Most people are so unaware of their surroundings they are screwed before they even realize there is a threat.

    That’s what kept me alive as a cop. And I teach as a trainer.

    In your comment you mention being a cop. Am I to assume you’ve shot through windshields in real life or in training? I’ve shot through windshields,side windows, and back glass. My findings for 9 mm, 40 S&W, and 223 don’t mirror your comment.


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    Gilbertc13

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    Sep 27, 2018
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    Katy
    I’m going to have to agree with Jon on this one. 9mm FMJ and hollowpoints will go through a windshield


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    TxKronik

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    Jul 31, 2019
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    San Antonio
    In your comment you mention being a cop. Am I to assume you’ve shot through windshields in real life or in training? I’ve shot through windshields,side windows, and back glass. My findings for 9 mm, 40 S&W, and 223 don’t mirror your comment.


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    Yes and I experience and I have not seen penetrations one windshields

    Side and rear yes but not front
     

    Hoji

    Bowling-Pin Commando
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    May 28, 2008
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    Mustang Ridge
    Yes and I experience and I have not seen penetrations one windshields

    Side and rear yes but not front
    Did some instructor level training that involved shooting a hole in the windshield and using it as a shooting port. Both from inside a vehicle and outside.
    Most of the students were using 9mm or 40s&w. 100% of shots fired put holes in the windshields.
    This was a LE training class I was able to get in as a commissioned security instructor
     

    Jon Payne

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    Did some instructor level training that involved shooting a hole in the windshield and using it as a shooting port. Both from inside a vehicle and outside.
    Most of the students were using 9mm or 40s&w. 100% of shots fired put holes in the windshields.
    This was a LE training class I was able to get in as a commissioned security instructor

    Yep, I’ve shot from inside the vehicle and outside shooting into the passenger compartment. I’ve shot through doors, trunk, and “pillars”.


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    Jon Payne

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    If someone wants to live up to their own low expectations I’m cool with that. If they think they can measure my abilities by their standards they can fornicate themselves with a cactus.


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    Mike_from_Texas

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    3   0   0
    Feb 10, 2010
    1,468
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    North Texas
    If someone wants to live up to their own low expectations I’m cool with that. If they think they can measure my abilities by their standards they can fornicate themselves with a cactus.


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    There’s a meme for that.

    7f3e21be31119663e7c0f2d67abfe580.jpg





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    Deavis

    Active Member
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    1   0   0
    Oct 20, 2011
    827
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    Austin
    In your comment you mention being a cop. Am I to assume you’ve shot through windshields in real life or in training? I’ve shot through windshields,side windows, and back glass. My findings for 9 mm, 40 S&W, and 223 don’t mirror your comment.


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    I've seen a pile of windshields with a lot of 9mm holes going right through them from a PD testing a variety of duty ammo on them for that very reason. Their findings match yours as well.
     

    Hoji

    Bowling-Pin Commando
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    36   0   0
    May 28, 2008
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    Mustang Ridge
    I agree 100% with all you said room clearing tactics are for someone who doesn’t know the layout and is looking for a hidden target. I know my house layout and a home invader isn’t hiding from me.

    Long range my ass average shooting is under 7 yards and takes less that 1.2 seconds start to finished.

    Most people live in urban neighborhoods on lots averaging 60x120ft there is no long range need here and if you pull out your deer rifle with 3.5-10x you’ll have a hell of a time justifying self defense

    Vehicles haha most people think their 9 or 40 will penetrate a windshield IT WONT especially not head on the windshield angles are to steep for vehicle aerodynamics low velocity small caliber won’t penetrate no matter how many action movies shows it. (hint shoot down on to the windshield to penetrate need to contact it flat angle)

    If you want to learn skills then learn to draw from deep concealment. Learn to fire accurately from the hip. Learn trigger control.

    Most importantly Learn Zanshin (a state of awareness, of relaxed alertness).

    Most people are so unaware of their surroundings they are screwed before they even realize there is a threat.

    That’s what kept me alive as a cop. And I teach as a trainer.
    This bodycam video would seem to refute your assertion on bullets vs windshields.
     

    TxKronik

    New Member
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    0   0   0
    Jul 31, 2019
    33
    11
    San Antonio
    I've seen a pile of windshields with a lot of 9mm holes going right through them from a PD testing a variety of duty ammo on them for that very reason. Their findings match yours as well.

    I have seen those also even shot at some myself.

    there is a difference between a broken windshield propped up while someone stands over it shooting down at an angle to make the impact 90 degrees to the glass

    and a windshield properly mounted in a vehicle at an angle designed to have the best deflection it can for aerodynamics.

    Now make that a moving vehicle that creates its own upward air turbulence and penetration becomes an issue.

    Real world vs shooting range can have a big impact on outcomes and I think people should be aware of this before they have to find out the hard way (heaven forbid).
     

    Hoji

    Bowling-Pin Commando
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    36   0   0
    May 28, 2008
    17,700
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    Mustang Ridge
    Jesus Christ you are pathetic. One article that a windshield stopped one ( maybe) bullet( could have been a higher powered air gun) could have been some cheap Walmart range ammo( have had many weak rounds from Winchester white box) and you are proclaiming whatever bullshit you are spouting?

    Several actual LEOs here have done shooting through a windshield training( as have I, but am not an LEO) I have posted actual body cam footage of a windshield being shot though ( consistent with the training I have done) but you still won’t nut up and admit you were full of shit?

    You work for Ector County by any chance? I am not going to say I think you are full of shit about being LE, only because I have met TABC officers that say shit on the same level of pants on head retarded.
     

    Gilbertc13

    Active Member
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    1   0   0
    Sep 27, 2018
    933
    76
    Katy
    9mm goes thru windshield of moving cars... Oregon just had an OIS that was released to the public. CA city police chased a guy and the #1 driver emptied 2 mags they the windshield while the passenger fired almost a full mag from his AR15 thru the windshield...


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    Deavis

    Active Member
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    1   0   0
    Oct 20, 2011
    827
    26
    Austin
    I have seen those also even shot at some myself.

    there is a difference between a broken windshield propped up while someone stands over it shooting down at an angle to make the impact 90 degrees to the glass

    and a windshield properly mounted in a vehicle at an angle designed to have the best deflection it can for aerodynamics.

    Now make that a moving vehicle that creates its own upward air turbulence and penetration becomes an issue.

    Real world vs shooting range can have a big impact on outcomes and I think people should be aware of this before they have to find out the hard way (heaven forbid).

    Yeah... I'll just let the others finish it off. Don't quote me with assumptions you make about things you don't know.
     

    Jon Payne

    Well-Known
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    1   0   0
    Nov 16, 2010
    2,017
    66
    Third Coast
    I have seen those also even shot at some myself.

    there is a difference between a broken windshield propped up while someone stands over it shooting down at an angle to make the impact 90 degrees to the glass

    and a windshield properly mounted in a vehicle at an angle designed to have the best deflection it can for aerodynamics.

    Now make that a moving vehicle that creates its own upward air turbulence and penetration becomes an issue.

    Real world vs shooting range can have a big impact on outcomes and I think people should be aware of this before they have to find out the hard way (heaven forbid).

    You have no fornicating idea what level of experience the members you’re talking about have. It’s obvious to some that you consider yourself to be an expert and I’m just fine with that. Seems that meme that was shared recently fits perfectly.


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