There has got to be more than IPSC and IDPA and ICORE

[Deaf Smith]

Observed a IDPA bug match... same old 10 targets, steel plates, double tap 'em , run and gun....

Folks, I'd love to see a real defensive match. Few targets, fast draws, one handed shooting, real concealment, appendix and IWB holsters.

None of this high round count barricade stuff.

Is anyone doing this in Texas?

 

[etmo]

Fast draws? It's been a minute, but IIRC IDPA has fast draws. Never done a BUG match, maybe there's a difference, but otherwise, the faster your draw the better your stage time. I know for certain this is the case with USPSA.

I also heard that IDPA now allows concealment, but if that's still percolating down, USPSA has always allowed full concealed carry, and you can use whatever holster / gun / optic / compensator / caliber you bloody well please in the Open division. Wanna draw your AR pistol from a Miami Vice shoulder rig under your Armani jacket? Open division is waiting for you.

Gabe White competes with his concealed carry gun (and concealed reload mag as well) in USPSA Limited division, and has achieved the rank of Master. I've never seen anyone better from concealment than Gabe, and was lucky enough to take his class when he came through central Texas earlier this year. When you're ready to get serious about your concealed carry training, look him up.

One-handed shooting is sometimes a requirement in IDPA and USPSA, but you can feel free to shoot any and all targets with one hand if you feel you need the reps. Unless it is specified to shoot a certain way, you can always shoot one handed if you wish.

As for "real concealment" -- what is "fake" concealment? Unless specified where you must stand, you can take every single shot concealed behind any prop in the stage if you want. Or, pretend that the first target is concealment after you shoot it. The world is what you make of it. IDPA is a bit more restrictive than USPSA, maybe you need to check out your local USPSA match.

Also, if you don't like the stage design at your local club, get involved and design stages the way you like them. Just about any USPSA club would appreciate such an effort. I kind of do this, but not at competitions, in my training. I bring my targets and props and set up stages that I have devised to work on my weaknesses. That way, I can get tons of reps, not just one competition's worth. YMMV.

 

[DougC]

If you are in the neighborhood of Dallas Pistol Club, Carrollton, TX you might find the scheduled Saturday matches has a different appeal for you. Check out the schedule and contact the respective match directors from the website for details. Non-members are always welcome during any scheduled match.

Sunday matches resembles the US Steel Challenge format as for number of strings per stage and targets used.

One other detail; club rules for matches are all holsters must be worn on strong (dominant) side only. No cross-draw, appendix, ankle, shoulder, small of back, thigh, etc.

 

[toddnjoyce]

…Folks, I'd love to see a real defensive match...

Tell us in your own words what makes a gun game a real defensive match.

Most all matches reflect the rule book…which may or may not reflect what real defensive engagements look like.

 

[cycleguy2300]

Observed a IDPA bug match... same old 10 targets, steel plates, double tap 'em , run and gun....

Folks, I'd love to see a real defensive match. Few targets, fast draws, one handed shooting, real concealment, appendix and IWB holsters.

None of this high round count barricade stuff.

Is anyone doing this in Texas?

If you dont like matches available, practice on your own or get a few buddies together and have your own informal match between friends.

Of the run-&-guns I've done, they were all great and never similar. The motivation to maintain aerobic fitness is a BIG plus too. Quick drawing and ripping off 90% of your shots into the A zone is fine, but I like the huge variation is R&G stages and the problem solving needed to do well on blind stages.

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[Deaf Smith]

Tell us in your own words what makes a gun game a real defensive match.

Most all matches reflect the rule book…which may or may not reflect what real defensive engagements look like.

Long time ago, way long time ago, near SFASU we had 'walk & draw' matches. Just like Jeff Cooper and Big Bear Lake. Simple two plates and two contestants walk toward them.. horn would tell 'em to draw and try to knock their plate off the post before the other guy could. And yes we had the 'Flying M' to. All man-vs-man and no long strings of shots with 10 targets... which is 100 percent unrealistic.

I guess man-vs-man (which is what happens in the street) is to dangerous as for lawyers (you go real fast.)

Now to me most defensive shootings are quite short range.. 3 ft to 20 at the most. 10 targets??? No. Running and gunning from box to box? No. Bunch of speed reloads? No.

Now I do like IPDA finally got to 15 round mags but I don't know of a club that allows appendix carry (which technically IDPA allows.)

I did IDPA and IPSC for many many years. Yea you learn lots of good skills but really fast close in shooting is not one of them. You are not timed on the first shot but on the string.. thus speed of draw and speed of first shot is very low in importance.

And with the ammo shortage/prices one would think short fast stages with low round count would be popular. I just don't see it.

 

[cycleguy2300]

Long time ago, way long time ago, near SFASU we had 'walk & draw' matches. Just like Jeff Cooper and Big Bear Lake. Simple two plates and two contestants walk toward them.. horn would tell 'em to draw and try to knock their plate off the post before the other guy could. And yes we had the 'Flying M' to. All man-vs-man and no long strings of shots with 10 targets... which is 100 percent unrealistic.

I guess man-vs-man (which is what happens in the street) is to dangerous as for lawyers (you go real fast.)

Now to me most defensive shootings are quite short range.. 3 ft to 20 at the most. 10 targets??? No. Running and gunning from box to box? No. Bunch of speed reloads? No.

Now I do like IPDA finally got to 15 round mags but I don't know of a club that allows appendix carry (which technically IDPA allows.)

I did IDPA and IPSC for many many years. Yea you learn lots of good skills but really fast close in shooting is not one of them. You are not timed on the first shot but on the string.. thus speed of draw and speed of first shot is very low in importance.

And with the ammo shortage/prices one would think short fast stages with low round count would be popular. I just don't see it.

The run-&-guns I do are two-gun biathlon style and are anywhere from 6 to nine miles with 7 shooting stages randomly on the course and take about 50-hits with the rifle and another 50 for the pistol, so bring plenty of ammo!. The stages often include movement, crawls natural barricades and are a ton of fun

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[bbbass]

Observed a IDPA bug match... same old 10 targets, steel plates, double tap 'em , run and gun....

Folks, I'd love to see a real defensive match. Few targets, fast draws, one handed shooting, real concealment, appendix and IWB holsters.

None of this high round count barricade stuff.

Is anyone doing this in Texas?

Just watch the news... this occurs daily/nightly in all Demorat run big cities!!!

 

[etmo]

I did IDPA and IPSC for many many years. Yea you learn lots of good skills but really fast close in shooting is not one of them. You are not timed on the first shot but on the string.. thus speed of draw and speed of first shot is very low in importance.

WRT to IPSC (and USPSA) -- The timer starts the stage, so the clock is running before anything else can happen.

Thus the draw speed and speed of first shot are of some importance, because time's a-wastin', but ultimately, however, it's been shown that movement is where most non-pro competitors lose time, and generally lose far more time than the few tenths of a second that they might lose compared to the fastest draw speeds out there.

 

[Mills]

South Zazamora street on a Saturday night.

 

[m5215]

Try ICOAH.

(I)ndividual
(C)ompetition
(O)nline
(A)t
(H)ome

 

[bbbass]

I guess man-vs-man (which is what happens in the street) is to dangerous as for lawyers (you go real fast.)

Man vs man. I'm sure you mean as in the plate shooting you referenced, etc. There are lots of disciplines that feature such competitive "speed shooting"... why try to make run and gun matches, IDPA n USPSA, into something they were never intended to be. Sounds to me like you are just bored... maybe go and find some clubs that feature speed shooting and give them a try??? (Bowling pin, dueling plates, speed steel)

Now to me most defensive shootings are quite short range.. 3 ft to 20 at the most. 10 targets??? No. Running and gunning from box to box? No. Bunch of speed reloads? No.

Depends on the stages chosen by the Match Director. Ours (IDPA) always tried to mix it up. We shot both short and long. I didn't like the long as I felt it wasn't true to the founding principles of Defensive Pistol, but was told that SOMETIMES there are long shots, and those stages give a person a chance to practice those under stress. Personally, if the agressor is that far away, I'm gonna do my RunFu or HideFu!! LOL

10 targets: It IS a game. And should be fun. If you want 100% simulation of real life, maybe consider "Force on Force" training/classes??? That said, the influx of USPSA shooters into IDPA has IMO changed things for the worse.

Box to box... yah, that is a USPSA thing not done in IDPA at my club and not on IDPA approved stages AFAIK. We move from cover to cover, and often shoot while on the move in between.

Speed reloads in IDPA at my club have been somewhat de-emphasized to more accurately represent what a real gunfight would be, which is mostly no mag change at all (except for LEO involved gunfights).

Now I do like IPDA finally got to 15 round mags but I don't know of a club that allows appendix carry (which technically IDPA allows.)

Well, I'm curious about two things:
1. IDPA started as unlimited mag size, then restricted to 10rd mags to represent so many of the states having limitations, then went back to "standard capacity" in which we were allowed to use whatever the firearm came with but typically limited to 15rd to keep it fair across the board between shooters.
2. IDPA had mandatory use of cover garments and the rules stated that no part of a holster or mag was allowed to show. Concealed was the order of the day, and concealed is "concealed". All the IDPA rules at first were intended to simulate real life EDC which means concealed. Then the USPSA bunch got involved.
3. My IDPA club doesn't allow appendix carry, carry behind the back, and shoulder holster draw... the unsafe draw would too often have one sweeping himself or others, or breaking the 180deg rule. You long for unsafe draw, please do it on your own away from me!

I did IDPA and IPSC for many many years. Yea you learn lots of good skills but really fast close in shooting is not one of them. You are not timed on the first shot but on the string.. thus speed of draw and speed of first shot is very low in importance.

You really need to look thru the national club stage book. We shot from chest and low retention (hip level) at 3 targets that were 1' away... draw and blast away.

IDK what you mean by not doing really fast shooting. Both IDPA, IPSC, and USPSA are all timed stages and are scored time vs accuracy. Therefore improving your draw speed, which will help in real life, also improves your score. Now, there was one guy in USPSA that we called "Rocket" he had a.38Super unlimited race gun that he made sound like it was on full auto. But his accuracy was either really good or really bad depending on if he had his timing down. Which took a lot of practice and high number of rounds, say 5000/week. Ok, that is fine for a game, but I prefer the original IDPA intent of simulated real life and obviously blasting away based on "timing" is not something one would do in real life. Or shouldn't.

I don't know why you say speed of draw to first shot is very low in importance... yes it's not part of the scoring other than in overall time elapsed. But the first person to achieve an anatomically significant hit on the opposition will usually win a real life gun fight. And that is why those splits are recorded by the shot timer and available to you if you want to know. If that's important to you, just ask the RO/SO.

It doesn't need to be this hard to get what you want. But please do some things for yourself instead of only offering criticism. Take the bull by the horns. Get on the match committee, become an RO, design some stages and submit them to the match director.

Sheesh.

 

[cycleguy2300]

https://www.oedefense.com/event-details/hr3-run-n-gun-1-1

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[Deaf Smith]

Man vs man. I'm sure you mean as in the plate shooting you referenced, etc. There are lots of disciplines that feature such competitive "speed shooting"... why try to make run and gun matches, IDPA n USPSA, into something they were never intended to be. Sounds to me like you are just bored... maybe go and find some clubs that feature speed shooting and give them a try??? (Bowling pin, dueling plates, speed steel)




Depends on the stages chosen by the Match Director. Ours (IDPA) always tried to mix it up. We shot both short and long. I didn't like the long as I felt it wasn't true to the founding principles of Defensive Pistol, but was told that SOMETIMES there are long shots, and those stages give a person a chance to practice those under stress. Personally, if the agressor is that far away, I'm gonna do my RunFu or HideFu!! LOL

10 targets: It IS a game. And should be fun. If you want 100% simulation of real life, maybe consider "Force on Force" training/classes??? That said, the influx of USPSA shooters into IDPA has IMO changed things for the worse.

Box to box... yah, that is a USPSA thing not done in IDPA at my club and not on IDPA approved stages AFAIK. We move from cover to cover, and often shoot while on the move in between.

Speed reloads in IDPA at my club have been somewhat de-emphasized to more accurately represent what a real gunfight would be, which is mostly no mag change at all (except for LEO involved gunfights).




Well, I'm curious about two things:
1. IDPA started as unlimited mag size, then restricted to 10rd mags to represent so many of the states having limitations, then went back to "standard capacity" in which we were allowed to use whatever the firearm came with but typically limited to 15rd to keep it fair across the board between shooters.
2. IDPA had mandatory use of cover garments and the rules stated that no part of a holster or mag was allowed to show. Concealed was the order of the day, and concealed is "concealed". All the IDPA rules at first were intended to simulate real life EDC which means concealed. Then the USPSA bunch got involved.
3. My IDPA club doesn't allow appendix carry, carry behind the back, and shoulder holster draw... the unsafe draw would too often have one sweeping himself or others, or breaking the 180deg rule. You long for unsafe draw, please do it on your own away from me!




You really need to look thru the national club stage book. We shot from chest and low retention (hip level) at 3 targets that were 1' away... draw and blast away.

IDK what you mean by not doing really fast shooting. Both IDPA, IPSC, and USPSA are all timed stages and are scored time vs accuracy. Therefore improving your draw speed, which will help in real life, also improves your score. Now, there was one guy in USPSA that we called "Rocket" he had a.38Super unlimited race gun that he made sound like it was on full auto. But his accuracy was either really good or really bad depending on if he had his timing down. Which took a lot of practice and high number of rounds, say 5000/week. Ok, that is fine for a game, but I prefer the original IDPA intent of simulated real life and obviously blasting away based on "timing" is not something one would do in real life. Or shouldn't.

I don't know why you say speed of draw to first shot is very low in importance... yes it's not part of the scoring other than in overall time elapsed. But the first person to achieve an anatomically significant hit on the opposition will usually win a real life gun fight. And that is why those splits are recorded by the shot timer and available to you if you want to know. If that's important to you, just ask the RO/SO.

It doesn't need to be this hard to get what you want. But please do some things for yourself instead of only offering criticism. Take the bull by the horns. Get on the match committee, become an RO, design some stages and submit them to the match director.

Sheesh.

Not talking plate shooting like today (I've done the Texas Steel Challenge and I got 1st IDPA years ago.) Walk-n-Draw means just that. You walk side by side with other contestant and BOTH draw at the same signal... no timers. First to drop the plate wins that bout. 2 out of 3 bouts and you are 'shot down' by the other contestant. J ladder is used.

Speed of first shot is VERY IMPORTANT in SD... much less in IDPA/IPSC due to strings of shots fired.

Oh, did I mention I have 40 trophies in my man cave? 3 are karate but the rest are IDPA/IPSC/Steel Challenge and others. I have 3 or 4 state championship trophies. And I threw away a bunch of the small local trophy stuff years ago.

So I am kind of well versed at what goes around. I just prefer more 'practical' matches that really do relate to self defense. And they are hard to find.

 

[toddnjoyce]

Long time ago, way long time ago, near SFASU we had 'walk & draw' matches….

Have you considered CFDA? There’s a handful of clubs across the state. Not exactly what you’re looking for, but is man vs man against the clock.

Home - Cowboy Fastdraw Association

Welcome to the Cowboy Fast Draw Association https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BpJhs0B210&ab_channel=PatrickMediaLLC Quick Introduction to Cowboy Fast Draw Want to Learn More? Be sure to check out Quick Cal's New 10 Part Youtube Video SeriesExplaining Everything You Need to Get Started and Find...

www.cowboyfastdraw.com

There’s always the opportunity to start your own league, to. Or look for unaffiliated clubs to see what they have to offer.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Have you considered CFDA? There’s a handful of clubs across the state. Not exactly what you’re looking for, but is man vs man against the clock.

Home - Cowboy Fastdraw Association

Welcome to the Cowboy Fast Draw Association https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BpJhs0B210&ab_channel=PatrickMediaLLC Quick Introduction to Cowboy Fast Draw Want to Learn More? Be sure to check out Quick Cal's New 10 Part Youtube Video SeriesExplaining Everything You Need to Get Started and Find...

www.cowboyfastdraw.com

There’s always the opportunity to start your own league, to. Or look for unaffiliated clubs to see what they have to offer.

Well I am NOT a cowboy... Deaf Smith came before the cowboy days!

Would love to see an established league start a sub-match just for true CCW. Places like IDPA/IPSC have insurance... just in case of those lawyers come by looking for a pay day.

 

[bbbass]

Not talking plate shooting like today (I've done the Texas Steel Challenge and I got 1st IDPA years ago.) Walk-n-Draw means just that. You walk side by side with other contestant and BOTH draw at the same signal... no timers. First to drop the plate wins that bout. 2 out of 3 bouts and you are 'shot down' by the other contestant. J ladder is used.

Well, seems to me that you would start your own club/discipline if you wanted to do this very much. Maybe get one of the dueling plates or steel challenge clubs to do it as a side match or stage.

Speed of first shot is VERY IMPORTANT in SD... much less in IDPA/IPSC due to strings of shots fired.

I agree, except that your earlier statement said it was of "very low" importance. That is what I disagree with. Maybe what you want is a single shot stage. Maybe make one up and submit it.

Oh, did I mention I have 40 trophies in my man cave? 3 are karate but the rest are IDPA/IPSC/Steel Challenge and others. I have 3 or 4 state championship trophies. And I threw away a bunch of the small local trophy stuff years ago.

So I am kind of well versed at what goes around. I just prefer more 'practical' matches that really do relate to self defense. And they are hard to find.

Yah, Yah yah, I'm so impressed. But the reality of your experience with matches is not the same as mine. If you want to come to NE Oregon rural mountain community, I think you'd like our matches.

And It would seem that our recollection of what happened on the national club scene is different.

 

[bbbass]

Places like IDPA/IPSC have insurance... just in case of those lawyers come by looking for a pay day.

Oh boy. So much wrong with this I can't even begin to address it!!!

 

[Mowingmaniac 24/7]

The 'gambler/hillbilly/ds' appears in many guises...once again, he darkens our doorstep...

 

[hullhullhull]

Watch out fellows, we got a badass over here, hehe!

I got a steel plate and a shot timer. Let me know what your standard is and I’ll incorporate it into our next TGT group shoot out here in El Paso.