DK Firearms

Thoughts on "premium" brass

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  • Dermako

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    May 16, 2019
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    Even if you purchase a quality box (or two/three) of brass that is just a starting point.
    They will then need to be inspected, sized, trimmed, measured, weighed and sorted.
    Quality bullets are also required.
    Bullets each inspected, weighed and sorted.
    High quality scale that measures to at least tenths (175.03 example).
    Now plan on better part of a day to accomplish this feat.
    On average you will end up with 30-40 equally weighed pieces of brass and bullets (out of 100).
    Now you can start working on what you rifle likes for charge weights.
    And you will be well on your way to competition shooting (or extreme accuracy)

    All that said.
    You say your gun is shooting 1/2 MOA at 100yards.
    We are talking about a hunting rifle I assume.
    1/2 MOA for a hunting rifle is a damn good string.

    But finding that perfect combination is rewarding.
    2396734B-A9AC-4440-8083-CCE70639C422.jpeg

    Your brass prep and attention to detail will make a bigger difference than just buying more expensive brass, imho.....
     

    RankAmateur

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    OP, you have NO idea how deep a rabbit-hole you're opening up (grin). Precision is a passion and a sickness, but as @Dermako posted, it can be rewarding. Just be sure you want this disease and that the results would be worth your costs and efforts!

    As previously posted, if you're getting 1/2 MOA with your .308 now, you may not get much more regardless. Just be "OK" with that possibility. In your favor (at least) is that you are unlikely to have to be concerned with ballistic variability caused by barrel temperature (you will likely only need the rifle to send one or two rounds downrange at a time. So, it is FAR more important that you tune your load to your specific rifle, and gain confidence that your load is consistent. Good brass prep (which you may already be doing) using good components and equipment, may get you consistency (bullets leaving the muzzle at the same velocity, low ES/SD, etc.), but may not really improve anything beyond improving vertical POI dispersion - and may not even improve that. For maximum effect with (sort-of) minimum effort, I would suggest that you focus on tuning. Sorry for a long post, but this example may serve...

    I'm posting a picture of 6 targets from a seating depth ladder shot with .308Win at 200 yds from benchrest on a dead calm day. This is not an ordinary rifle, nor ordinary ammo. The rifle is a bespoke George Gardner build by GA Precision, with heavy Bartlein barrel and custom action. Brass is Lapua small-primer, matched for water volume, neck-turned, annealed, sized, mandrel expanded, trimmed, chamfered, deburred, polished, flash-holes and primer pockets uniformed. Bullets are flat-based target bullets matched for weight and length, and then pointed. Powder is weighed to 1/100 grain. Primers are Remington 7 1/2 benchrest seated to 3 thousandths below surface. Bullets are seated using a micrometer seater with measured CBTO matched to +/- 3 ten thousandths of an inch! Can we agree that this is about as far from standard factory .308Win ammo as you can get? Can we also agree that you don't want to come anywhere close to this level of insanity for your hunting loads??:cowboy:

    Now, using that ammo in the custom target rifle, I assembled a seating ladder with rounds having the bullets seated at different depths, varying by 3 thousandths of an inch in each step. For these targets, the lengths started at 2.087" (yielding a jump of 95 thousandths to the lands), and increasing by 3 thousandths in each step (2.090, 2.093, 2.096, 2.099, 2.102). The first group of 3 rounds was fired without adjusting windage or elevation on the scope. The POI was adjusted for the second group simply to bring the group up onto the target, and no further adjustments were made. As you can see, the groups were not impressive for this rifle and load combination UNTIL the 2.099" CBTO (83 thou "jump"), when all three rounds went through the same hole. Making the rounds just 3 thousandths longer opened the group right up again. This "screamer" node was only 2 thousandths wide so I didn't pursue it, and found another that was 6 thousandths wide at a 45 thousandths jump.

    My point being that even with really good components and technique, tuning the load to the rifle made a huge difference in precision. Finding such a node (screamer but narrow) with your rifle may not be useful as performance of the rounds may then be affected by the different temperatures/altitudes/humidities you encounter on your hunt. These rounds are also loaded way too long to use a magazine. Sorry again for the long post. Hope it levels your expectations somewhat, and helps you decide if you're crazy enough to get into the precision game. It is also my intent to suggest that once you are satisfied that your materials and techniques are good enough to make consistent ammo, it is the process of tuning a load to your specific rifle that likely will give the most benefit. As always, YMMV.

    3-4-22 .125gr jump ladder.jpeg
     

    MTA

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    Mar 10, 2017
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    Correction I meant this gun is sub MOA, not half MOA. Tightest group has been .71

    It is a lighter hunting rifle. It think they weigh in at 6 pounds 12 ounces. Barrel is a thinner profile
     

    MTA

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    OP, you have NO idea how deep a rabbit-hole you're opening up (grin). Precision is a passion and a sickness, but as @Dermako posted, it can be rewarding. Just be sure you want this disease and that the results would be worth your costs and efforts!

    As previously posted, if you're getting 1/2 MOA with your .308 now, you may not get much more regardless. Just be "OK" with that possibility. In your favor (at least) is that you are unlikely to have to be concerned with ballistic variability caused by barrel temperature (you will likely only need the rifle to send one or two rounds downrange at a time. So, it is FAR more important that you tune your load to your specific rifle, and gain confidence that your load is consistent. Good brass prep (which you may already be doing) using good components and equipment, may get you consistency (bullets leaving the muzzle at the same velocity, low ES/SD, etc.), but may not really improve anything beyond improving vertical POI dispersion - and may not even improve that. For maximum effect with (sort-of) minimum effort, I would suggest that you focus on tuning. Sorry for a long post, but this example may serve...

    I'm posting a picture of 6 targets from a seating depth ladder shot with .308Win at 200 yds from benchrest on a dead calm day. This is not an ordinary rifle, nor ordinary ammo. The rifle is a bespoke George Gardner build by GA Precision, with heavy Bartlein barrel and custom action. Brass is Lapua small-primer, matched for water volume, neck-turned, annealed, sized, mandrel expanded, trimmed, chamfered, deburred, polished, flash-holes and primer pockets uniformed. Bullets are flat-based target bullets matched for weight and length, and then pointed. Powder is weighed to 1/100 grain. Primers are Remington 7 1/2 benchrest seated to 3 thousandths below surface. Bullets are seated using a micrometer seater with measured CBTO matched to +/- 3 ten thousandths of an inch! Can we agree that this is about as far from standard factory .308Win ammo as you can get? Can we also agree that you don't want to come anywhere close to this level of insanity for your hunting loads??:cowboy:

    Now, using that ammo in the custom target rifle, I assembled a seating ladder with rounds having the bullets seated at different depths, varying by 3 thousandths of an inch in each step. For these targets, the lengths started at 2.087" (yielding a jump of 95 thousandths to the lands), and increasing by 3 thousandths in each step (2.090, 2.093, 2.096, 2.099, 2.102). The first group of 3 rounds was fired without adjusting windage or elevation on the scope. The POI was adjusted for the second group simply to bring the group up onto the target, and no further adjustments were made. As you can see, the groups were not impressive for this rifle and load combination UNTIL the 2.099" CBTO (83 thou "jump"), when all three rounds went through the same hole. Making the rounds just 3 thousandths longer opened the group right up again. This "screamer" node was only 2 thousandths wide so I didn't pursue it, and found another that was 6 thousandths wide at a 45 thousandths jump.

    My point being that even with really good components and technique, tuning the load to the rifle made a huge difference in precision. Finding such a node (screamer but narrow) with your rifle may not be useful as performance of the rounds may then be affected by the different temperatures/altitudes/humidities you encounter on your hunt. These rounds are also loaded way too long to use a magazine. Sorry again for the long post. Hope it levels your expectations somewhat, and helps you decide if you're crazy enough to get into the precision game. It is also my intent to suggest that once you are satisfied that your materials and techniques are good enough to make consistent ammo, it is the process of tuning a load to your specific rifle that likely will give the most benefit. As always, YMMV.

    View attachment 367453
    Dont get me wrong I respect the hell out of long range / precision shooters but I have nowhere near enough time to devote to that level. I agree about tuning a load to a rifle. Ive got some things to try out now and bullet seating depth is one I will try too
     

    Sam7sf

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    Well at least you’re shooting 308. I mean it’s not 30-06 but that’s ok. 308 is still like drinking a six pack and watching hacksaw Jim duggan. At least you’re not asking about reloading for 6.5 cm and what medication is best for your transition surgery
     

    TxStetson

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    You already know Hornady 308 brass is not good for reloading. When I decided to make my own match 308 ammo, I bought 200 Hornady match brass and Hornady ELD match projectiles. It didn’t take me long to figure out I wasn’t making anything precision with that combination. I was just getting into F class back then and one of the guys I shot with walked me through his ritual of reloading. He then proceeded to throw all my Hornady brass and projectiles into the fuckit bucket. I pulled them out later and used them to make plinking ammo until the primers started falling out after the 3rd reload, and some of the brass started splitting. I started using Lapua brass and SMK or Berger projectiles and couldn‘t believe the difference it made in my results.
     

    Sam7sf

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    To me the bullets or ammo that stood out the most was Barnes. Even factory ammo I get good results with Barnes.
     

    popforall

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    Aug 25, 2022
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    Let me start out, I am a hunter, not a long range paper murderer. But I really like my hunting rifles to be close or at half MOA at 100. As most of you know I am heavily invested in .308. I am starting to wonder if I should be spending some money on premium brass? Like Nosler, Lapua, Alpha, maybe Starline (I heard it is really consistent)?

    What I mean by premium is not hornady or whatever I can buy at walmart, shoot and then reload. I have a good amount of hornady, win, fed and rem brass but I have taken a few samples in the past and its definitely not consistent when it comes to weight. I am able to produce sub moa groups but not at the consistency that I desire.

    What do yall think? Is expensive brass a good investment? Thank you in advance
    50 years of reloading seems to tell me that there is a very small difference in performance using mixed headstamps. There is something that I have observed that puzzles me. As an experiment, I prepped fire formed cases for reloading up to the point of being ready to prime.
    All cases the same length, etc w/o any neck turning (I do not turn). I weighed the cases and found a surprising difference in weight between the cases. Sometimes cases from the same manufacturer. Since the cases were uniform in length, the additional weight must come from brass thickness elsewhere. I concluded that the expansion chambers (that is all a cartridge is) must be varying in dimension and the pressures would have to be differing. Having said that, it made me question the concept of neck turning. I turned the necks and guess what. I still had weight variance. Had to conclude that there is a recordable difference in the amount of brass that is in cases and also had to question how effective neck turning actually was if the goal was uniform pressure.
     

    RankAmateur

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    You are, of course, spot on. "Better" brass tends to be "better" because of the metal used (harder/softer/etc), and most importantly, the uniformity of the cases. If QC of a manufacturer accepts more variation, the product will have differences in brass hardness. If the dies are used for too long, the case thicknesses will substantially vary, etc. Competitive shooters often rely less on measured case-wall thickness, and more on water volume. They actually plug the primer pocket, fill the case with water and weigh it. Really good brass has the same internal volume case to case. That volume consistency can usually (and I mean usually) be detected by consistency in the weight of the case itself. Most competitive shooters sort brass (using only the same brand and only from the same lot number) by weight, and only use a sample of brass that varies by 1/2 of a grain for a specific loading. So, your observation that samples of mixed Headstamp, mixed lot brass varies substantially in weight is precisely correct.

    As to neck turning, it isn't done to uniform the weight of the cases. In certain cases, the neck wall brass is simply too thick for the finished round to fit into a tight-necked chamber. For example, I have a rifle chambered in .30BR with a .330 neck. Any neck wall thicker than 10 thousandths (plus the diameter of the bullet) will simply not fit into the chamber. Most brass has factory walls of between 12 and 16 thousandths thick, so those cases have to be turned to get them to be useful in this rifle.

    Just as importantly, consistency of neck tension yields uniformity of the bullet leaving the neck at the same pressure/time/etc during firing. Most brass is quite inconsistent in the neck wall thicknesses around the neck (and rest of the body as well). So, competitive shooters sometimes turn the necks so that the brass is the same thickness all the way around the seated bullet. The uniformity of pressure you mention comes from the cases all having the same internal volume (so "same" pressure and pressure curve during firing), and the bullet releases from the neck with the same pressures behind them, and leaves the neck straight since one side of the neck is not holding the bullet more strongly than another (theoretically). Neck turning is part of that equation, and the case weight uniformity is only a side effect of that case shape/volume/thickness uniformity.

    Hope that helps!

    By the way, unless you are shooting competitively, and need that last thousandths of an inch of uniformity in bullet strike in order to be competitive (short-range benchrest matches are often lost when a group of 5 rounds produce a single hole that is a few thousandths of an inch larger than the winner's group), neck turning my not be useful to you at all.
     
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