Troops left to fend for themselves after Army was warned of flaws in rifle

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  • breakingcontact

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    “The M4s were substandard,” he said. “The Army paid us to find a way to improve them, improve them cheaply with a little bit of extra engineering and metallurgical changes to make a gun that was markedly more reliable than the Colt weapon. The Army took our advice and did nothing with it.”
     

    breakingcontact

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    Before the AR fanboys show up and I hope they do, let me say, the M4 as a civilian is a pretty good gun, especially something like the M&P Sport for $550. It has a lot of cool technology and I think it's a good value and will serve most civilians well for most of their purposes. It's modularity and ergonomics are great as well. The fact that ARs have become so ubiquitous is a good thing, I'm glad they are flying off the shelves and now everyone and their brother has an AR. But...there are much better (more reliable) designs out there that still retain many of the good features of the AR.

    I always find it so strange how much disdain most of have for the government but when we buy guns we try to emulate what they do, when we have far more choices that those who are in government service. (Both military for rifles and LE for pistols)

    Also, yes, much of what's in the story are old tests and comments from individuals, but Gen Scales comments I found to have weight to them.

    So not only am I not a cop basher, I'm not an AR basher, it's just there are much much better designs out there for both military and civilians.

    Not sure if the Marines really made the choice based on it being right, to keep the M16 vs it being cheaper, but it sounds like they made the right decision either way.

    Oh wow, mute the woman's voice in the intro and outro in the video!

    *Yes I also know there are differences between AR and M16/M4. I had one of them fancy gubmint issued ARs with the pew pew pew switch but preferred my M249 SAW.
     
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    Shotgun Jeremy

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    I think that if they would just put in the money to upgrade the parts that are giving them the issues, and start issuing out AR10's to the guys in Afghanistan, then that might help things.
     

    Dredens

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    What a lot of civilians (not all, so don't bit my head off now y'all) don't realize is that their range rifles are not put under the same stressors as standard-issue rifles are. Yes, the AR's are great for your average enthusiast, but when placed under a great amount of wear and tare that the standard issue rifles go through, they'd fare about the same as the issued rifles. I've been issued the M16A2, M16A4 and M4 with and without optics, and by far my favorite model is the M16A4. All of them fare about the same when it comes to needing cleaning though. I can say that the Marines' choice to keep the A4 was a pretty good one in the current budget climate, though I'm not too fond of their choice to replace the M249's with M27's with 30rd mags (but that's a different debate for a different time I guess).
     
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    Dredens

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    I think that if they would just put in the money to upgrade the parts that are giving them the issues, and start issuing out AR10's to the guys in Afghanistan, then that might help things.

    Our snipers (at least in my brigade) currently have AR-10's as their issue weapons over here. As for the average soldier getting issued an AR10, I wouldn't recommend it too much.
     

    Dredens

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    Perhaps they will upgrade more parts in the next iteration of the same rifle? Maybe even make it piston driven?

    If they were to convert the issue rifles to piston, it would solve a lot of issues with needing to clean so much as well as the lifespan of certain functional components. It's difficult for armorers (at least in a straight leg infantry unit) to order all the parts necessary to constantly keep all the rifles up to date. Often times the rifles break and are put aside and one of the reserve rifles are issued until the broken one can be turned in and a new one ordered. Often times they can't even order individual rifles, but instead have to wait until they have to replace enough rifles to order an entire set (8 or more or so).
     

    HillRider

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    Before the AR fanboys show up and I hope they do, let me say, the M4 as a civilian is a pretty good gun, especially something like the M&P Sport for $550. It has a lot of cool technology and I think it's a good value. The fact that ARs have become so ubiquitous is a good thing, I'm glad they are flying off the shelves and now everyone and their brother has an AR. But...there are much better designs out there. I always find it so strange how much disdain most of have for the government but when we buy guns we try to emulate what they do, when we have far more choices that those who are in government service. (Both military for rifles and LE for pistols)

    Also, yes, much of what's in the story are old tests and comments from individuals, but Gen Scales comments I found to have weight to them.

    So not only am I not a cop basher, I'm not an AR basher, it's just there are much much better designs out there for both military and civilians.

    Oh wow, mute the woman's voice in the intro and outro in the video!

    Emulating the military is kind of a chicken or the egg thing. Provides an easy reference point for standards. Many manufactures producing compatible parts. A design that is begging for "improvements" and everyone's latest and best enhancements. It's the ultimate toy.

    The article is flawed, though. Much of the complaints are about the effectiveness of 5.56/.223. No surprises. Other complaints are about how the M4 handles sustained full-auto fire. No surprises.

    Finally, it speaks of the constant maintenance and problems in dirty/harsh environments. Everyone seems to be divided on how important this is. The gun is the ultimate enigma.

    But still, what are the better options?
     
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