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Troops left to fend for themselves after Army was warned of flaws in rifle

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  • breakingcontact

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    “The M4s were substandard,” he said. “The Army paid us to find a way to improve them, improve them cheaply with a little bit of extra engineering and metallurgical changes to make a gun that was markedly more reliable than the Colt weapon. The Army took our advice and did nothing with it.”
     

    breakingcontact

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    Before the AR fanboys show up and I hope they do, let me say, the M4 as a civilian is a pretty good gun, especially something like the M&P Sport for $550. It has a lot of cool technology and I think it's a good value and will serve most civilians well for most of their purposes. It's modularity and ergonomics are great as well. The fact that ARs have become so ubiquitous is a good thing, I'm glad they are flying off the shelves and now everyone and their brother has an AR. But...there are much better (more reliable) designs out there that still retain many of the good features of the AR.

    I always find it so strange how much disdain most of have for the government but when we buy guns we try to emulate what they do, when we have far more choices that those who are in government service. (Both military for rifles and LE for pistols)

    Also, yes, much of what's in the story are old tests and comments from individuals, but Gen Scales comments I found to have weight to them.

    So not only am I not a cop basher, I'm not an AR basher, it's just there are much much better designs out there for both military and civilians.

    Not sure if the Marines really made the choice based on it being right, to keep the M16 vs it being cheaper, but it sounds like they made the right decision either way.

    Oh wow, mute the woman's voice in the intro and outro in the video!

    *Yes I also know there are differences between AR and M16/M4. I had one of them fancy gubmint issued ARs with the pew pew pew switch but preferred my M249 SAW.
     
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    Shotgun Jeremy

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    I think that if they would just put in the money to upgrade the parts that are giving them the issues, and start issuing out AR10's to the guys in Afghanistan, then that might help things.
     

    Dredens

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    What a lot of civilians (not all, so don't bit my head off now y'all) don't realize is that their range rifles are not put under the same stressors as standard-issue rifles are. Yes, the AR's are great for your average enthusiast, but when placed under a great amount of wear and tare that the standard issue rifles go through, they'd fare about the same as the issued rifles. I've been issued the M16A2, M16A4 and M4 with and without optics, and by far my favorite model is the M16A4. All of them fare about the same when it comes to needing cleaning though. I can say that the Marines' choice to keep the A4 was a pretty good one in the current budget climate, though I'm not too fond of their choice to replace the M249's with M27's with 30rd mags (but that's a different debate for a different time I guess).
     
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    Dredens

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    I think that if they would just put in the money to upgrade the parts that are giving them the issues, and start issuing out AR10's to the guys in Afghanistan, then that might help things.

    Our snipers (at least in my brigade) currently have AR-10's as their issue weapons over here. As for the average soldier getting issued an AR10, I wouldn't recommend it too much.
     

    Dredens

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    Perhaps they will upgrade more parts in the next iteration of the same rifle? Maybe even make it piston driven?

    If they were to convert the issue rifles to piston, it would solve a lot of issues with needing to clean so much as well as the lifespan of certain functional components. It's difficult for armorers (at least in a straight leg infantry unit) to order all the parts necessary to constantly keep all the rifles up to date. Often times the rifles break and are put aside and one of the reserve rifles are issued until the broken one can be turned in and a new one ordered. Often times they can't even order individual rifles, but instead have to wait until they have to replace enough rifles to order an entire set (8 or more or so).
     

    HillRider

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    Before the AR fanboys show up and I hope they do, let me say, the M4 as a civilian is a pretty good gun, especially something like the M&P Sport for $550. It has a lot of cool technology and I think it's a good value. The fact that ARs have become so ubiquitous is a good thing, I'm glad they are flying off the shelves and now everyone and their brother has an AR. But...there are much better designs out there. I always find it so strange how much disdain most of have for the government but when we buy guns we try to emulate what they do, when we have far more choices that those who are in government service. (Both military for rifles and LE for pistols)

    Also, yes, much of what's in the story are old tests and comments from individuals, but Gen Scales comments I found to have weight to them.

    So not only am I not a cop basher, I'm not an AR basher, it's just there are much much better designs out there for both military and civilians.

    Oh wow, mute the woman's voice in the intro and outro in the video!

    Emulating the military is kind of a chicken or the egg thing. Provides an easy reference point for standards. Many manufactures producing compatible parts. A design that is begging for "improvements" and everyone's latest and best enhancements. It's the ultimate toy.

    The article is flawed, though. Much of the complaints are about the effectiveness of 5.56/.223. No surprises. Other complaints are about how the M4 handles sustained full-auto fire. No surprises.

    Finally, it speaks of the constant maintenance and problems in dirty/harsh environments. Everyone seems to be divided on how important this is. The gun is the ultimate enigma.

    But still, what are the better options?
     

    Younggun

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    What's an A4?

    Man, y'all had some fancy stuff. My M16 was an A3 and we LIKED it, cause it's all we had!


    :p


    I really don't know much about the M4s but don't recall hearing many complaints from the guys carrying them and looking at us like we dig out rifles out of the rice patties in Nam.


    Whatever happened to the XM8 testing? Was talk of it doing great when I was in and replacing the M4 but then it just kinda disappeared. Looked similar to the bushmaster ACR as I recall.
     

    Dredens

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    Emulating the military is kind of a chicken or the egg thing. Provides an easy reference point for standards. Many manufactures producing compatible parts. A design that is begging for "improvements" and everyone's latest and best enhancements. It's the ultimate toy.

    The article is flawed, though. Much of the complaints are about the effectiveness of 5.56/.223. No surprises. Other complaints are about how the M4 handles sustained full-auto fire. No surprises.

    Finally, it speaks of the constant maintenance and problems in dirty/harsh environments. Everyone seems to be divided on how important this is. The gun is the ultimate enigma.

    But still, what are the better options?

    I know that the 6.8mm left the 5.56mm in the dust in almost all categories tested when fielded with SOCOM, so that addresses that. If the DoD put out the word for a specifically piston upgrade, someone would deliver with a reasonable price (eventually), which would solve a lot of the functionality and maintenance issues. As a standard-issue rifle, the problems with full auto are rather moot as almost all TTP's I've ever heard of pretty much forbid standard soldiers from going full auto/burst, but rather have them fire rapidly on semi, but SOCOM does it quite a bit.
     

    breakingcontact

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    What's an A4?

    Man, y'all had some fancy stuff. My M16 was an A3 and we LIKED it, cause it's all we had!


    :p


    I really don't know much about the M4s but don't recall hearing many complaints from the guys carrying them and looking at us like we dig out rifles out of the rice patties in Nam.


    Whatever happened to the XM8 testing? Was talk of it doing great when I was in and replacing the M4 but then it just kinda disappeared. Looked similar to the bushmaster ACR as I recall.

    Cannot confirm nor deny A4s existence. I was never here.
     

    Dredens

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    What's an A4?

    Man, y'all had some fancy stuff. My M16 was an A3 and we LIKED it, cause it's all we had!


    :p


    I really don't know much about the M4s but don't recall hearing many complaints from the guys carrying them and looking at us like we dig out rifles out of the rice patties in Nam.


    Whatever happened to the XM8 testing? Was talk of it doing great when I was in and replacing the M4 but then it just kinda disappeared. Looked similar to the bushmaster ACR as I recall.

    Combination of politics and costs killed the project. Also, it had a proprietary handguard incompatible with most of our attachable items at the time (though I'm sure that could have been an easy fix).


    EDIT: Also A4 is flat-top with rails and fixed A2 stock:

    untitled.png
     
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    Shotgun Jeremy

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    What's an A4?

    Man, y'all had some fancy stuff. My M16 was an A3 and we LIKED it, cause it's all we had!


    :p


    I really don't know much about the M4s but don't recall hearing many complaints from the guys carrying them and looking at us like we dig out rifles out of the rice patties in Nam.


    Whatever happened to the XM8 testing? Was talk of it doing great when I was in and replacing the M4 but then it just kinda disappeared. Looked similar to the bushmaster ACR as I recall.
    I remember hearing about how the XM8 was gonna be the rifle to replace the M16, but I guess they couldn't make it's performance be any better than that of the M16, and it was also a little heavier anyways.
     

    Paul5388

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    I was in the Navy first and we didn't see AR's. We were still using Garands that I was glad we didn't have tote around. I believe the Marines were using the M14 and the Air Force was using the AR. Troops carry such an enormous load, I don't blame them for wanting lighter ammo. I was in tanks in the Army, so I still didn't worry about carrying a rifle, or a gigantic load of gear! A .308/.223 (.30 TCU) would probably be a more effective round and still light enough to carry!
     

    SIG_Fiend

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    Considering there are some commercial elements/links in that article, I'd take some of it with a grain.

    Here's a supreme authority on the matter, and he's done some very in depth, documented tests to show what the platform is capable of: CTT-Solutions.com - Articles
     

    Texas42

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    The army won't replace the M4 5.56Nato weapon until there are phaser weapons. . . or at least cheap phaser weapons.

    The answer is economic. It takes several hundred thousand, if not a million rounds fired to kill one enemy. 5.56 is cheap. switching to another platform would spend untold billions and produce a weapons platform that would only be minimally more effective (and I think that is a stretch) weigh more.
     

    shortround

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    The M16A2 was a fine battle rifle. By the time it was introduced in the 1980's, practically every bug was worked out. The Army eventually realized that early powders caused the fouling that caused those stoppages. (The Army ignored Stoner's powder specification, because there was so much WWII gunpowder left over when the M16 was introduced).

    The clamor for a "carbine" variant ultimately led to plenty of grief. We were issued the precursor of the M-4 in the early 90's, then had those carbines withdrawn from service and had our older M16A2's re-issued.

    Those carbines were made my FN under license by Colt in a manufacturing plant in South Carolina. Those guns never made their way back into our arms rooms. I suspect they were exported.

    As for single or two stage triggers --- that is a personal preference, not necessarily one correct for 100% of the force --- mechanics, cooks, clerks, and jerks don't need a two stage trigger.

    Special Operators have always had extra leeway in the procurement and modification of their weapons. That a special operator would complain that his carbine had a crappy trigger tells me volumes.

    Gene Stoner and John Browning designed their firearms to work as originally designed. Whenever those designs are modified, the original design is rendered void.

    By comparison, the AK never had a major make-over until it was stepped down to a smaller caliber. Yet, the 7.62x39 prevails world-wide because the original design is superior.

    The M16A2 has yet to be bested by a competing design.
     
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