Uh oh, THIS thread again: legalization of drugs

[atticus finch]

I was asking the OP, for a specific reason.

And just in general, what makes anyone think the illegal drug trade business would go away?

Price and/or profit would be the first reason. Right now it's banned and/or illegal, therefore it's simply supply and demand or basic free market principles at work.
A limited supply (what can be smuggled in) and a large demand by the public makes for a very high value, hence high profit.
The fight, or killing, is who gets the monopoly over that market and who reaps the benefit of that monopoly.
Remove the illegality of it and anyone can now supply the market, no more monopoly and/or high price. No more massive profits and the cartels lose thier source of money.
Anyone who wishes to sell alcohol can do so, get the permits or whatever is needed, crank up your still and do your thing.
No monopoly is created by the existence of various laws banning it. The gang wars of the `30's were over the very same thing as are the current drug gang wars, who will get the monopoly over the commodity and the massive profits from it. In the `30's it was over alcohol, now it's drugs. Soon as the ban on alcohol was lifted, did the gang wars continue over the production and illicit sale of alcohol? Moonshine does not count as an example, that is an effort to avoid taxes, not a fight over a monopoly of profit.

 

[atticus finch]

Experience abroad has shown that controlled legalization of marijuana is not a problem. It's possible to screw up the process but the drug isn't harmful enough (even the newest, strongest stuff) to cause major problems.

Other drugs need to be treated case by case.

Take alcohol. Legal, controlled, but it still causes great harm to society. However, we've got a handle on it for the most part. When we don't have a handle on it, it wrecks peoples bodies and their ability to function. It can be *very* bad news.

However, 100+ years ago, we had a near-perfect cure for alcoholism. It was called heroin. In prescribed, monitored dosages, heroin addicts can have their fix without ravaging their body the way alcohol does. Britain's state-funded and -supplied heroin addicts are often perfectly wonderful contributing members of society; they just don't drive cars and are never allowed to have enough of the stuff at one time to re-sell it or harm themselves. So, I could live with legalizing heroin, given smart administration of the process. Asking our government (and yes, this is something that would have to be done by government) to intelligently administer anything, however, seems like a foolish bet these days.

Other drugs become more problematical. Of course, the libertarian in me says to make it all legal. Likewise, the libertarian in me totally rejects the notion that driving drunk should be a crime. After all, until you hurt somebody, what's the harm? (If you hurt somebody, of course, you should have the jailhouse dropped on you, says my libertarian self.) That pure libertarianism, however, doesn't work in the real world.

LSD is arguably safe. It's also arguably one of the few drugs that can come back to bite you in the ass decades after you took one hit.

Cocaine is not safe but not immediately life-threatening. However, having had many friends with bad cocaine habits, the way it changes people is never in the public interest. I can't see any form of it being considered sufficiently harmless (or controllable) as to justify broad legalization. That goes triple for crack.

Forms of meth works differently, can be horrifically abused, but have shown significant medical usefulness. I wouldn't be in favor of making it any more available than it already is.

Sativa is just weird. It seems harmless as long as you have trusted friends to babysit your experimentation. I can't really condone encouraging the use of a drug that can't (and it's just my opinion that it can't) be used reasonably safely by a single person.

Just some initial thoughts. I'll sit back and see what others say for a while.

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Other drugs become more problematical. Of course, the libertarian in me says to make it all legal. Likewise, the libertarian in me totally rejects the notion that driving drunk should be a crime. After all, until you hurt somebody, what's the harm? (If you hurt somebody, of course, you should have the jailhouse dropped on you, says my libertarian self.) That pure libertarianism, however, doesn't work in the real world.

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I don't know how to split up posts so I had to highlight or whatever it's called, that part of your post I put between the lines is often it seems to me where the argument starts.

Drunken driving shouldn't be a crime, neither should drugs be illegal or driving under the influence of either or otherwise. If you are your own property, you own yourself (your physical self) then why do you not have the right to put into your own body whatever you choose to? However poor of a choice it might be, it is still your right to choose what you do with your own body (property). If your own body is not your own property, then who does it belong to and why? (This does not include military service, join the marine corps and your ass belongs to them.....)
However the issue starts when you inflict damage on another person's property, be it themselves or thier physical property. If you drive drunk, cause a wreck, hit thier house, car, whatever form of physical damage you cause, or in the worst cases physical injury or cause thier demise. Then you should be held responsible for your actions, those being whatever violation of that individuals private property rights, both in thier person and thier property that you caused.
It could and should be exactly the same with drugs, get high and do any of the same, then you are responsible for whatever you did.
Myself I tend to think the law as it exists facilitates the problem, especially when insurance is involved. To a large degree it removed the real burden of responsibility from the individual and made it 'relatively' low-cost to engage in such behavior. prison may suck but it doesnt' cost the offender anything, it costs the society who is forced to pay for the operation of prisons. Who gets the fines individuals pay? Do they go to the individuals harmed or does the 'state' (government at any level) get the money? How does the state getting the fine help the individual who has suffered any damage, ditto for putting someone in prison? How did that create any restitution of damages in thier life?
Were we to reinstitute the concept of bonafide restitution, where an individual is directly responsible, both personally and financially, for repairing or creating proper restitution for whatever harm they've caused. I suspect any drug or alcohol related societal issues would if not disappear entirely would be greatly reduced.

Several examples: First you smash up someone's car, now you don't get to palm off the cost to the insurance company and just pay higher insurance premiums, YOU ALONE are the one who will pay to get the damage repaired.

A worse-case: you kill someone in a car wreck, was that the family's primary bread winner? Congratulations, until that family's children graduate from college (you better hope they get scholarships, otherwise thier college will be part of your responsibilities), you will work to support and otherwise provide for that family's needs until the kids are out of college or what might be determined as a workable standard of self-supporting adulthood on thier part. Their mom? She is now your responsiblity for the rest of her life, or unless she perhaps remarries.
Wipe out an entire family? I don't have an answer for that one. To say the world isn't a perfect place, nor is genuine freedom perfect and it has risks is to sound callous towards such a calamity. I don't have an answer other than to say if that is the only example of what someone would use to argue against the idea of genuine restitution and the personal responsibility it'd generate, as well as any other changes to the current status-quo of the 'war on drugs' & so forth. I'd say the current status quo isn't working, we are losing a great many things in our society owing to this so-called war on drugs, etc, and maybe we might want to start thinking about other ways of doing things.
It is true families are killed far too often due to drunk driving and so forth and I can't even begin to comprehend what that would do to whatever loved ones of thiers who either survive or are part of thier families. Yet despite the status quo of the law, it is still happening, maybe it is not a bad idea to start looking at other possible solutions?

As for train engineers, airplane pilots and/or any other individual who's responsibilities include the safety of the public, I'd hold them to the same standard. If they get trashed by whatever means on the job and they cause any harm, then they are responsible for restitution of the entirety of the harm they cause. Crash a train because you are stoned and kill 50 passengers, hope you find a really good paying job because you're going to need it.
Would that mean an individual is going to be working for the rest of his life to pay for such? You're damned right, that's the entire idea. I wonder how many people would now behave in irresponsible fashion knowing it could cost them the rest of thier lives....... Could there be a legal limit to such things as restitution and it's effects due to the responsibility? I don't know, should a person pay for the rest of thier lives for one mistake?
If it costs others the rest of thier lives by whatever form or fashion, ie: death or whatever, my thought is your goddamned right you should......Again, I wonder how many people would behave in irresponsible fashion with the knowledge this is the cost they will bear for doing so?

Add edit: this would also include theft and so forth. Steal someone's property, you either return it or make full restitution on it, cost be damned it's your responsibility.
I'd also add the issue of use of force, remove the legal horrors an individual goes through when they rightfully engage in the use of force to protect private property be it themselve or tangible property. I would bet the drug addicts would not be so quick to engage in theft of any sort. It is another argument always used against legalization, the drug addicts would steal us blind. Simple, either make restitution or when they realize they may very well be risking thier lives, odds are they won't be too quick to do so. And there is the cold hard truth, after enough of them get themselves killed, odds are the message will get across to the rest.

 

[Jeffrey]

One human being doesn't have the right to tell another human being what they can or can't put in their body. Period.

Weed was made illegal by cotton growers because it was a free-market threat to their product. They appealed to the same public sensibilities that gave us prohibition. [Rolling eyes] The biggest obstacle currently is two-fold. The big pharmaceutical companies don't want any free-market competition. Same reason the Ephedra plant has been demonized into near extinction.

The second issue is all the free money law enforcement gets from it. There's too much money in fines on the table. Pot heads are docile, and keep to themselves, but they do usually hold jobs, and generate paychecks. That's money that law enforcement can extort through fines.

 

[Southpaw]

Were we to reinstitute the concept of bonafide restitution, where an individual is directly responsible, both personally and financially, for repairing or creating proper restitution for whatever harm they've caused. I suspect any drug or alcohol related societal issues would if not disappear entirely would be greatly reduced.

Though, I agree in spirit with the "bonafide restitution" it would never work.
How do you force a man to work to pay for a multi million dollar payment when he wasn't on track to make anything close to that in his career prior to the accident?
Most would choose not to work, and you would end up with still needing to do something with them. I suspect the same people that end up in prison today, would end up there under this system as well.

 

[SR9TEX]

I'm sitting here watching Drug inc. Its not looking good...

 

[Texas42]

Beneglish, Cocaine can kill you. . . every time you take it. Any use can increase your risk for cardiac events your entire life.

And I'm certain heroine was not made for alcohol abuse, but opioid abuse. Just like methadone is used today.

Frankly, it doesn't matter in this discussion, but anyway. . . .

 

[atticus finch]

Though, I agree in spirit with the "bonafide restitution" it would never work.
How do you force a man to work to pay for a multi million dollar payment when he wasn't on track to make anything close to that in his career prior to the accident?
Most would choose not to work, and you would end up with still needing to do something with them. I suspect the same people that end up in prison today, would end up there under this system as well.

It is a good question, how do you make an individual meet thier responsibilities to that extent? I don't have the immediate answer either. Prison just doesn't seem to solve the issue either, ourselves are who end up bearing the burden for that and it doesn't do squat for the people who actually suffered damages of whatever sort.

 

[TwinGlocks]

Drug prohibition as practiced today works about as well as gun control.

(I really don't like drugs and I don't use them, if they can find a policy that actually worked at getting rid of drugs, I'd be all for it)

 

[ROGER4314]

I am 32 years clean and sober. I take no drugs (except for Wally World sinus pills) sugar, coffee or anything else that would alter how I feel or act. In fact, I drink no soda, diet or otherwise and drink only water.

In the years before sobriety, I saw many users die.

Carl, my next door neighbor, an 11th grade HS student, sold pot. He disappeared for two months and his remains were found in a car trunk with a bullet hole in the skull. The murderer must have had a sense of humor because he parked the car in "long term" parking at Tulsa International Airport.

The neighbor on the other side of my house was baby sitting for his newborn son. The kid kept crying and Turner was high. He killed the child.

My best friend Don, was selling pot and making lots of money. His competition (organized crime) put him out of business by smashing his face.

One of my students snagged a ride from a friend when school let out. They were sharing a joint when the car missed a curve, flipped and killed Tommy.

Mike, a friend in Tulsa, loved drugs to the point where he ended up living in the crawl space under his ex-wife's house.

My life was another major failure in the tale of how good chemicals can be. Thank God, I'm free of that! I got cleaned up, earned a Masters Degree and became a teacher.

Drugs and alcohol never did anything positive in my life. Please don't tell me how cool that stuff is!

Flash

 

[AngeliaH]

My father committed suicide while high when I was 4. Boyfriend committed suicide drunk and on coke back 14 years
ago. Spent some time myself eating ice with salt on it instead of buying food because spending the $ on the drug
was more important. Weed....as long as it doesn't affect me or mine....no problem. But harder drugs ruin lives. Making
them legal will not help that. It would just remove one more barrier keeping some people from trying it. Not a good thing.
JMHO.

 

[txbikerman]

agree with you roger, have seen lots of friends mess up their lives with drugs and alcohol. See people drink everything away, losing jobs, family and everything they had, same with drugs. people change when under the influence of drugs and alcohol. Do things that they would normally never do.

 

[ROGER4314]

I'd love to hear some stories about what a positive influence drugs have been in someone's life, how they make everything better, how the job and income improves and folks are happier and healthier from using drugs. Sorry, I can't help you there.

On second thought.....if you have positive and happy stories about your personal drug use, DON'T share them in the open forum! Remember that pesky question on the Federal 4473 form? You'd set yourself up for a perjury charge.

Flash

 

[Younggun]

I understand that bad things have happened from drug use, but I don't understand how the bad things roger discussed are different than the bad things alcohol has caused.

Why are most OK with alcohol use but against the use of pot when the effects are similar except that there are very few angry pot heads?

 

[ROGER4314]

I never gave said I approved of alcohol use. I hate the damned stuff and if it disappeared today, I wouldn't mourn. This thread was about legalizing drugs so I ignored that side of chemical abuse. In some ways, alcohol dependency is even worse!

Want some alcohol abuse stories? I could start with my father and Uncle Walter. Booze killed them both.

Flash

 

[Younggun]

My question was not directed at you and I never implied that you were Ok with alcohol. You said you didn't use it in the other post.


Just something that bothers me when people bring up the horrors of drug use yet ignore the damage caused by something they view as ok. The question you put forth about the number of good things that have come from the use of other drugs could be applied equally to alcohol and I was simply trying to get others to look at their own thought process.

The thread is pointless because they will never legalize meth, etc.

 

[ROGER4314]

Clean & sober refers to staying away from drugs AND alcohol. Mr. Booze had his hands around my throat as well. Your concern is well founded. Getting off of alcohol is no walk in the park.

Flash

 

[jrbfishn]

I am old enough and been enough places around the world, and I have seen angry pot heads, and stupid ones, obnoxious ones and happy ones. Not much different than booze. And just like alchoholics, they can ruin lives, and not just thier own. Taken in moderation, I have nothing against either except what happens when abused. Hat really gets me pissed are the ones that still think they get smarter when they use it. I have known many idiots that thought they got smarter when buzzed or drunk. I am an idjit and I know even my coffee does not make me smarter, just makes me wanna be an idjit in hurry


from a non-recovering coffeeholic

 

[jrbfishn]

Clean & sober refers to staying away from drugs AND alcohol. Mr. Booze had his hands around my throat as well. Your concern is well founded. Getting off of alcohol is no walk in the park.

Flash

No, it is not. Just glad that I realized I was becoming a wino, loved cherry wine, and quit drinking after blacking out and driving almost 100 miles while brain dead. And I was right, became a coffeeholic instead. And yes, there is such a thing. Don't believe it, try getting between me and the coffee pot, just like a drunk or pot head. Not a pretty sight


from a non-recovering coffeeholic

 

[TheDan]

And I was right, became a coffeeholic instead. And yes, there is such a thing. Don't believe it, try getting between me and the coffee pot, just like a drunk or pot head. Not a pretty sight

I dated a girl that was in AA for a short time. She was annoying and obsessive about her coffee use just like an alcoholic or pot head is. She got mad when I said her and her AA buddies used coffee as a replacement addiction

 

[M. Sage]

I'd love to hear some stories about what a positive influence drugs have been in someone's life, how they make everything better, how the job and income improves and folks are happier and healthier from using drugs. Sorry, I can't help you there.

Just about every rock musician ever.

What do I win?

Old Bill Hicks (died of pancreatic cancer) bit: "See, I think drugs have done some good things for us, I really do. And if you don’t believe drugs have done good things for us, do me a favor; go home tonight, take all your albums, all your tapes, and all your CD’s and burn em’. 'Cause you don't want the musicians who’ve made all that great music that’s enhanced your lives throughout the years?..
Rrrrrrrreal fuckin' high on drugs."
- Bill Hicks

I couple prominent examples of this:

Red Hot Chili Peppers. On heroin? Awesome music. Off it? Suck horribly.

Chris Cornell admitted that it wasn't until he got involved in Audioslave (previous band was Soundgarden) that he'd made music without any influence from drugs. Guess what? Audioslave sucked, Soundgarden was pretty damn awesome.