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    Armybrat

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    Feb 27, 2009
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    At least Senator Graham said something good, and he is right.
    “The Russians are dying... it's the best money we've ever spent."

    It's both hilarious and true. Trainloads of dead Russians and their destroyed gear for mostly old stuff that we were paying to maintain and would have had to pay to decommission. Ukraine is eliminating Russia as a serious global threat with stuff NATO found in their couch cushions.

    This is one of the best returns on investment in history.
     

    cycleguy2300

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    How much of this “everything” had people convinced that Russias military rivaled ours just a year and a half ago? Who says the Russians view this as a failed war? Do you have any knowledge that whoever you think will replace Putin views this as a failed war?
    Many of russia's (supposed) strengths are their nukes (both land and navy based) which in an existential fight against the USA would, even this day, be an incredible threat.

    I cannot recall off-hand anyone who had been able to predict russia's failures in logistics training, coordination or tactics before this war started, but several commentators (Perun is may be my favorite) have been able to explain what maybe should have been obvious. Science is much the same. Sometimes something happens we don't expect and maybe couldn't predict beforehand. It can be explained afterwards and in this case it illuminated things like russian corruption gutting their war readiness...

    Sent from my SM-S918U1 using Tapatalk
     
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    angel71rs

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    Lukashenko allegedly in critical condition after meeting with putler. If he did get a dose, will putler manage to install a stoogier stooge who will send Belarus troops to the meatgrinder, or will Belarus spin completely out of putler's control?

     

    oldag

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    Lukashenko allegedly in critical condition after meeting with putler. If he did get a dose, will putler manage to install a stoogier stooge who will send Belarus troops to the meatgrinder, or will Belarus spin completely out of putler's control?

    Let's see...

    Lukashenko gets very ill.
    Attempted internal coup.
    Russian troops rescue Belarus from the "Ukranian inspired coup" and install the "rightful leader" (Luk) who promptly dies.
    His replacement does whatever Putin tells him to do.
     

    Havok1

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    Many of russia's (supposed) strengths are their nukes (both land and navy based) which in an existential fight against the USA would, even this day, be an incredible threat.

    I cannot recall off-hand anyone who had been able to predict russia's failures in logistics training, coordination or tactics before this war started, but several commentators (Perun is may be my favorite) have been able to explain what maybe should have been obvious. Science is much the same. Sometimes something happens we don't expect and maybe couldn't predict beforehand. It can be explained afterwards and in this case it illuminated things like russian corruption gutting their war readiness...

    Sent from my SM-S918U1 using Tapatalk
    I halfway agree. But the point is that listening to what “everything” says, is what led to a lot of misconceptions before, but now I’m supposed to believe those same people have it right? Are these the same people who are disseminating different sets of data publicly and privately? Is “everything” actually just coming from the same source?
     

    Cool 'Horn Luke

    Come on. Love me, hate me, kill me, anything.
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    Oct 22, 2022
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    Let's see...

    Lukashenko gets very ill.
    Attempted internal coup.
    Russian troops rescue Belarus from the "Ukranian inspired coup" and install the "rightful leader" (Luk) who promptly dies.
    His replacement does whatever Putin tells him to do.
    But...but...but...some here say this doesn't happen...must be that white nationalist Trump up to his old games again...
     

    leVieux

    TSRA/NRA Life Member
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    <>

    OK, here goes:

    I have kept relatively quiet on this b/c of respect for CycleGuy and his honest efforts to help, including a volunteer stint w/ the Ukrainian Military.

    But, I have been in communication with some real students of this area for over 20 years, long before Putin made any extraterritorial move, including Crimea.

    Those REAL experts have been predicting what we now see the entire time.

    Yes, for over 20 years!

    The US & NATO have been funding bioweapons development around the globe, ILLEGALLY, for decades, under guise of devising defensive methods.

    Several US/NATO bioweapons labs were in Ukraine for years, somewhere b/t 3 & 300 of them. The Russians have been aware of them the entire time.

    I and my experts are amazed by how many of y’all still believe the government & media line on this; when you KNOW they both LIE about everything.

    Yes, native Russians in the Donbas did give Putin plausible excuse for invading; but the real CAUSE was/is increasing NATO incursions into areas of reasonable Russian desired hegemony.

    While I’m at it, on another topic involving LIES; the entire 1960’s “Cuban Missile Crisis” was another orchestrated FRAUD, and JFK was no “Hero”.

    HIs infamous PT-109 episode was a violation of orders and unwarranted deaths of his crew. He avoided a courts-martial only by being the Ambassador’s Son under a democrat Tyrant, “FDR”. The “JFK / Kruschev Showdown” was another theatrical event; it had all been pre-agreed to allow JFK to “save face”; but it let the Soviets to violate the centuries old “Monroe Doctrine”, and still does.

    Please WAKE-UP; the “Ukraine War” is just one more big LIE in a long chain of LIES !

    leVieux
    .
     

    angel71rs

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    Nov 1, 2009
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    El Paso
    Russia CIA plot.jpeg
     

    candcallen

    Crotchety, Snarky, Truthful. You'll get over it.
    Emeritus - "Texas Proud"
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    2   0   0
    Jul 23, 2011
    21,358
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    Little Elm
    <>

    OK, here goes:

    I have kept relatively quiet on this b/c of respect for CycleGuy and his honest efforts to help, including a volunteer stint w/ the Ukrainian Military.

    But, I have been in communication with some real students of this area for over 20 years, long before Putin made any extraterritorial move, including Crimea.

    Those REAL experts have been predicting what we now see the entire time.

    Yes, for over 20 years!

    The US & NATO have been funding bioweapons development around the globe, ILLEGALLY, for decades, under guise of devising defensive methods.

    Several US/NATO bioweapons labs were in Ukraine for years, somewhere b/t 3 & 300 of them. The Russians have been aware of them the entire time.

    I and my experts are amazed by how many of y’all still believe the government & media line on this; when you KNOW they both LIE about everything.

    Yes, native Russians in the Donbas did give Putin plausible excuse for invading; but the real CAUSE was/is increasing NATO incursions into areas of reasonable Russian desired hegemony.

    While I’m at it, on another topic involving LIES; the entire 1960’s “Cuban Missile Crisis” was another orchestrated FRAUD, and JFK was no “Hero”.

    HIs infamous PT-109 episode was a violation of orders and unwarranted deaths of his crew. He avoided a courts-martial only by being the Ambassador’s Son under a democrat Tyrant, “FDR”. The “JFK / Kruschev Showdown” was another theatrical event; it had all been pre-agreed to allow JFK to “save face”; but it let the Soviets to violate the centuries old “Monroe Doctrine”, and still does.

    Please WAKE-UP; the “Ukraine War” is just one more big LIE in a long chain of LIES !

    leVieux
    .
    I think you're missing something.
    Let me try to be as clear as possible.

    1. No one cares about the labs. If the US wasn't funding such research it would be akin to malpractice. Especially with chinee and rusky doing worse.

    2. Labs in Ukraine for decades are not a plausible justification for invasion and merely an after thought as to justification. That means no one cared till they needed a list of reasons to justify invasion. If they were a justification you would have heard about them for years prior.

    3. Russian speakers in Donbas do not provide any justification for invasion anymore than when Hitler used the same excuse in the 1930s.

    4. Shocker, all gooberment lie.

    5. JF who? Seriously what's the point of a reference to JFK and pt 109?

    You think putin was justified in his invading Ukraine? If so you will grasp every straw you can find to support that in your mind. You're not gonna convince anyone else by parroting the Russian propaganda list for excuses to invade a sovereign nation version 23.

    I bet if one village in the asshole region of western Africa invaded its neighbor over goat raping you could come up with "experts" that you have known or known about from sitting in on secret meetings of some former intelligence official who, thru your retelling, could support your position and the rest of us would be too blinded by lies to see the glorious truth you have laid out. I say that not to be an asshole, though I admit it clearly sounds like an asshole statement, but to try to reinforce how ridiculous it is that you always toss out the experts you have known for decades or intelligence officials or dudes that were there as if it means anything. It doesn't.


    I find it both hilarious and telling that otherwise intelligent people revert to naive shocked and appalled marshmallows that a government would lie or operate a lab in a country that you wouldn't want here. At the same time they believe every statist bootlicker word that comes outta anyone's mouth that they think supports their position. They can't just have a different opinion and be good with that.

    Putin has no justification for invasion. Other than the ones he has outlined, i.e. wanting to remake the soviet union. People can learn from history or not. Appeasement of such people is the quick way to war. He should be stopped and a message sent to others like him. I would rather pay Ukraine to do the fighting than have our troops do it. If he were to go farther, which he clearly wants to.....I mean I'll take him at his word, we would definitely be the largest part of any nato involvement.

    Beyond that it splitting hairs imho.
     

    cycleguy2300

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    Mar 19, 2010
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    I halfway agree. But the point is that listening to what “everything” says, is what led to a lot of misconceptions before, but now I’m supposed to believe those same people have it right? Are these the same people who are disseminating different sets of data publicly and privately? Is “everything” actually just coming from the same source?
    I'm not saying believe all anyone says, but reasonably trustworthy analysts can get something wrong (that Ukriane would be steamrolled) then look at what they know and look at what happened and see where they were in error and make some corrections.

    Too many looked at raw numbers of spending and equipment and soldiers without looking at what those things looked like. Just like a chemical experiment where you get something unexpected, you often learn more than by getting the thing you hoped for.

    Too much emphasis was placed on ru's military budget, without taking into consideration what it was being spent on. Submarines, nukes, ships and so far not been of substantial use and they are a HUGE part of the budget. Corruption was perhaps underestimated as well.

    Ru's raw numbers of tanks failed to take into account readiness and crew training. Corruption caused problems here too

    The proliferation of MANPADS largely negated the russian advantage of air power, which prevented CAS missions allowing anti-tank teams to operate more freely, handicapping russia's early advantages in armor and mobility.

    Ru's logistics
    russia pushes supplies to the front without regard for what is being requested. This is a robust and sound system that ensures the units get what they are expected to need. But lack flexibility to deal with changes on the ground and it runs on rail... russia does not "do" logistics with trucks. The inability of russia to get supplies to the front with trucks was a bit of a surprise and caused the huge road jams during the assault on Kyiv in 2022

    Tactics
    An army runs on its NCOs. Russia had and has very few "professional" enlisted ranks. They have conscripts and they have officers with very little in-between to teach shodily trained troops how combat works. Russia was also forced to rely heavily on their artillery advantage because of a lack of air superiority, the artillery advantage is still ru's by numbers (iirc) but Ukriane has range and precision advantages now allowing hits on logistics infrastructure like fuel and ammo dumps, barracks etc

    Ukraine maximized their advantage in their budget by not having any foreign bases or peace keeping missions and was able to prepare for a fight on their turf.

    It's not like people didn't know this stuff, they just assigned the wrong values to them when trying to figure out how it would shake out.

    Sent from my SM-S918U1 using Tapatalk
     

    General Zod

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    Sep 29, 2012
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    Yes, native Russians in the Donbas did give Putin plausible excuse for invading; but the real CAUSE was/is increasing NATO incursions into areas of reasonable Russian desired hegemony.

    How strange, then, that Putin and his lieutenants have, at various times, let slip that the real CAUSE (as you put it, capitalization-wise) is Putin's desire to re-create the mythical "Greater Russia", encompassing all the territory of Tsarist Russia and the USSR combined. Hell, Putin even published a rambling, fanciful article on his alt-history take on how Russia was meant to have all that territory, how the people there all secretly want to be Russian, and how unfair it is that they're kept from Mother Russia's loving embrace.

    Maybe you and your experts should listen less to Russian paranoia about NATO (after all, their idea of a "defensive alliance" was the Warsaw Pact, a defensive alliance that repeatedly invaded its own members) and spend more time looking at the validity of the various (and often contradictory) claims you're accepting from the aggressors.
     

    leVieux

    TSRA/NRA Life Member
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    How strange, then, that Putin and his lieutenants have, at various times, let slip that the real CAUSE (as you put it, capitalization-wise) is Putin's desire to re-create the mythical "Greater Russia", encompassing all the territory of Tsarist Russia and the USSR combined. Hell, Putin even published a rambling, fanciful article on his alt-history take on how Russia was meant to have all that territory, how the people there all secretly want to be Russian, and how unfair it is that they're kept from Mother Russia's loving embrace.

    Maybe you and your experts should listen less to Russian paranoia about NATO (after all, their idea of a "defensive alliance" was the Warsaw Pact, a defensive alliance that repeatedly invaded its own members) and spend more time looking at the validity of the various (and often contradictory) claims you're accepting from the aggressors.
    <>

    We have different opinions on this.

    leVieux
    .
     

    Havok1

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    0   0   0
    May 10, 2021
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    I'm not saying believe all anyone says, but reasonably trustworthy analysts can get something wrong (that Ukriane would be steamrolled) then look at what they know and look at what happened and see where they were in error and make some corrections.

    Too many looked at raw numbers of spending and equipment and soldiers without looking at what those things looked like. Just like a chemical experiment where you get something unexpected, you often learn more than by getting the thing you hoped for.

    Too much emphasis was placed on ru's military budget, without taking into consideration what it was being spent on. Submarines, nukes, ships and so far not been of substantial use and they are a HUGE part of the budget. Corruption was perhaps underestimated as well.

    Ru's raw numbers of tanks failed to take into account readiness and crew training. Corruption caused problems here too

    The proliferation of MANPADS largely negated the russian advantage of air power, which prevented CAS missions allowing anti-tank teams to operate more freely, handicapping russia's early advantages in armor and mobility.

    Ru's logistics
    russia pushes supplies to the front without regard for what is being requested. This is a robust and sound system that ensures the units get what they are expected to need. But lack flexibility to deal with changes on the ground and it runs on rail... russia does not "do" logistics with trucks. The inability of russia to get supplies to the front with trucks was a bit of a surprise and caused the huge road jams during the assault on Kyiv in 2022

    Tactics
    An army runs on its NCOs. Russia had and has very few "professional" enlisted ranks. They have conscripts and they have officers with very little in-between to teach shodily trained troops how combat works. Russia was also forced to rely heavily on their artillery advantage because of a lack of air superiority, the artillery advantage is still ru's by numbers (iirc) but Ukriane has range and precision advantages now allowing hits on logistics infrastructure like fuel and ammo dumps, barracks etc

    Ukraine maximized their advantage in their budget by not having any foreign bases or peace keeping missions and was able to prepare for a fight on their turf.

    It's not like people didn't know this stuff, they just assigned the wrong values to them when trying to figure out how it would shake out.

    Sent from my SM-S918U1 using Tapatalk
    Once again, I half way agree with you. But you realize that you just pointed out that Russia has more that they can use than what they currently are using right? why do you think that the people you’re listening to who didn’t have a clear picture before suddenly do? You realize that ukraine is also relying on conscripts right? And that sending out people with very little, if any training due to their heavy losses has been a major problem for them for quite some time right?
     
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