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  • cycleguy2300

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    <>

    Agree, to a point, but. . . . .

    Is it wise to “Poke the Bear ?”

    <>
    What do you mean by "poke the bear"

    No one is poking the bear, If Ukraine seeks protection from russia through NATO or the EU, that is BECAUSE russia is a threat, not because NATO is. When a woman reaches for the phone to call police because she is scared her husband is about to beat her again, is that her provoking the situation?

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    leVieux

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    What do you mean by "poke the bear"

    No one is poking the bear, If Ukraine seeks protection from russia through NATO or the EU, that is BECAUSE russia is a threat, not because NATO is. When a woman reaches for the phone to call police because she is scared her husband is about to beat her again, is that her provoking the situation?

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    <>

    I mean, instead of sending “Tucker”, shouldn’t one of our ranking officials go talk dierctly to Putin, instead of building threats against the Russian Republic ?

    I feel that both our Military & CIA are way out of control.

    Between biolabs, money laundering, & NATO outposts on the Russian Border; the USA via NATO has been threatening Russia.

    <>
     

    cycleguy2300

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    <>

    I mean, instead of sending “Tucker”, shouldn’t one of our ranking officials go talk dierctly to Putin, instead of building threats against the Russian Republic ?

    I feel that both our Military & CIA are way out of control.

    Between biolabs, money laundering, & NATO outposts on the Russian Border; the USA via NATO has been threatening Russia.

    <>

    What biolabs?

    NATO ISNT A THREAT TO rUSSIA !!!! THE BALTICS JOINED NATO BECAUSE rUSSIA IS A THREAT. FINLAND AND SWEDEN JOINED NATO BECAUSE EVEN AFTER INVADING UKRAINE rUSSIA WAS THREATENING THEM!!!

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    benenglish

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    ...the USA via NATO has been threatening Russia.
    Leaving aside the first half of that sentence which unnecessarily complicates the question, I think your conclusion is, in practical terms, wrong-headed.

    In general and conceptually, yes, the mere existence of NATO is a threat to Russia. If my neighbor a couple of houses down set a bunch of ARs on tripods and kept them loaded and pointed at my house, I'd feel threatened.

    But that wasn't what what was happening in Europe when this latest invasion of Ukraine started. Historically, large-scale aggression against neighbors among European countries happens when the Germans get restless and decide to start shooting. In these modern times, if NATO were a true threat to Russia, the Germans would be the linchpin of aggression. The French, Brits, and even the USA couldn't just roll over Germany to attack Russia. Germany would have to buy in.

    But at the time of the invasion, Germany was literally (and I mean that in the old, literal sense of the word) most of the way through a plan to entirely de-militarize the country. The serving Minister of Defense (or whatever title that position holds in Germany) was tasked with entirely disbanding their military, save for a token (and mostly ceremonial?) contingent.

    In that light, Russia had no justifiable fear of aggression from NATO.

    Putin should have known that.

    They attacked out of paranoia. That paranoia was the product of many centuries during which it was absolutely justified, I'll grant. But it was a massive failure of leadership that they failed to understand that things were different now and the mindset that was entirely justified 100, 200, 500+ years ago was no longer necessary.

    That Putin was unable to adapt to that new reality is his greatest failure. The fallout has been a massive waste of lives, infrastructure, and economic progress.

    Depressing AF, I tell ya.
     

    leVieux

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    Leaving aside the first half of that sentence which unnecessarily complicates the question, I think your conclusion is, in practical terms, wrong-headed.

    In general and conceptually, yes, the mere existence of NATO is a threat to Russia. If my neighbor a couple of houses down set a bunch of ARs on tripods and kept them loaded and pointed at my house, I'd feel threatened.

    But that wasn't what what was happening in Europe when this latest invasion of Ukraine started. Historically, large-scale aggression against neighbors among European countries happens when the Germans get restless and decide to start shooting. In these modern times, if NATO were a true threat to Russia, the Germans would be the linchpin of aggression. The French, Brits, and even the USA couldn't just roll over Germany to attack Russia. Germany would have to buy in.

    But at the time of the invasion, Germany was literally (and I mean that in the old, literal sense of the word) most of the way through a plan to entirely de-militarize the country. The serving Minister of Defense (or whatever title that position holds in Germany) was tasked with entirely disbanding their military, save for a token (and mostly ceremonial?) contingent.

    In that light, Russia had no justifiable fear of aggression from NATO.

    Putin should have known that.

    They attacked out of paranoia. That paranoia was the product of many centuries during which it was absolutely justified, I'll grant. But it was a massive failure of leadership that they failed to understand that things were different now and the mindset that was entirely justified 100, 200, 500+ years ago was no longer necessary.

    That Putin was unable to adapt to that new reality is his greatest failure. The fallout has been a massive waste of lives, infrastructure, and economic progress.

    Depressing AF, I tell ya.
    <>

    I was raised by a Dad just home from USAAC Intelligence & Counter-Intelligence duty in the collapsed NAZI Germany. I grew-up hearing of the dangers to the West which would follow “overpacification” of post-NAZI Germany; and clear repeated unequivocal warnings that “AntiSemitism” would returrn during my lifetime.

    Dad never trusted the Soviets; but ironically he died just before the Soviet Union broke itself up in 1991.

    Dad declined the post of Chief of Allied Intelligence for the Koln Sector of occupied (West) Germany. He had spent almost a year with Brit MI-3 & MI-5 in wartime London, so the Brits approved. Ironically, Dad despised the Brits. Had he accepted, he would have been the ONLY person in that large area able to send packages out w/o censoring or inspections.

    When I was a kid, we had US General Officers as houseguests. I heard a lot back then.

    Sorry, but I don’t buy the scenario as Ben described.

    Of course, Putin is not the epitome of goodwill to anyone; but it is not in our interests to keep inciting enmity.

    Also, I was taught to not believe any “news” from a war zone, no matter where or from whom it originated.

    leVieux

    (AKA “Wrong Headed”)
     

    Havok1

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    What do you mean by "poke the bear"

    No one is poking the bear, If Ukraine seeks protection from russia through NATO or the EU, that is BECAUSE russia is a threat, not because NATO is. When a woman reaches for the phone to call police because she is scared her husband is about to beat her again, is that her provoking the situation?

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    all of our involvement in Ukraine has been about provoking Russia.
     

    benenglish

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    <>

    Is it still OK to have differing opinions on these “forums” ?

    <>
    Absolutely. And I thank you for yours.

    BTW and in an entirely off-topic tangent, my dad came out of WW2 hating the Brits, too. They sure must have pissed off a bunch of folks back in the day.
     

    cycleguy2300

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    all of our involvement in Ukraine has been about provoking Russia.
    russia may not like it, but that doesn’t mean it is provocative.

    I deal with folks who's choices elicited a police response and then, when they used force to stop the person's behavior, try to act as if it is everyone's fault but their own.

    You, handing your friend some brass knuckles, or a knife or a gun to defend themselves against an armed murderer, isnt provoking the murderer.

    Escalation isnt provocation. It is a point of fact that acts by a party justly defending themselves cannot be "provocation" to the aggressor to continue an assault. Even in Texas law this simple fact is clarified. If someone assaults you with "force" and "force" is justified in your defense the "threat of deadly force is justified" i.e You can point a gun (escalation) at someone who is punching you or about to punch you and they cannot l use your justified use of the threat of deadly force to claim provocation and then threaten you with deadly force.

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    Lead Belly

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    My unpopular opinion: Ukraine(Nato) v Russia is extended wargame. Just excuse to test out next gen warfare: drones, etc.

    Mil Industrial complex needs to deplete stockpiles to justify new orders. Another tax.

    Fear is big motivator- got Nato few new members. Concessions will be provided to participants- some oil, a port or 2.

    The soldiers are expendable, unfortunately.
     

    cycleguy2300

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    Oh yeah Stalin became a good communist on this day
    8816ff3b20dcdd4e49a0040e42139c03.jpg


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    cycleguy2300

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    My unpopular opinion: Ukraine(Nato) v Russia is extended wargame. Just excuse to test out next gen warfare: drones, etc.

    Mil Industrial complex needs to deplete stockpiles to justify new orders. Another tax.

    Fear is big motivator- got Nato few new members. Concessions will be provided to participants- some oil, a port or 2.

    The soldiers are expendable, unfortunately.
    I think (fear) this may be evidenced by the lack of timely equipment supply by the USA in particular regarding tanks, aircraft and AFVs and artillery shells.

    I am sure many in the swamp are happy to have russia too busy to do much anywhere else and just supply just enough aid to look good to pro-Ukie folks, not enough to piss off the anti-plunderers too much and let russia bleed themselves dry for a few years.

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    Havok1

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    russia may not like it, but that doesn’t mean it is provocative.

    I deal with folks who's choices elicited a police response and then, when they used force to stop the person's behavior, try to act as if it is everyone's fault but their own.

    You, handing your friend some brass knuckles, or a knife or a gun to defend themselves against an armed murderer, isnt provoking the murderer.

    Escalation isnt provocation. It is a point of fact that acts by a party justly defending themselves cannot be "provocation" to the aggressor to continue an assault. Even in Texas law this simple fact is clarified. If someone assaults you with "force" and "force" is justified in your defense the "threat of deadly force is justified" i.e You can point a gun (escalation) at someone who is punching you or about to punch you and they cannot l use your justified use of the threat of deadly force to claim provocation and then threaten you with deadly force.

    Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk
    You always make comparisons that do not fit, and each time it reveals your lack of relevent knowledge/experience. Although your chosen career is certainly respectable, it’s not nearly as relatable to this as you like to think. Just because from a US viewpoint somethjng isn’t provocative doesn’t mean that it isn’t from a Russian viewpoint. However, from a US viewpoint, what was going on IS considered provocative and was done so with the purpose of provoking. Maybe Ive got that part wrong though, and the same politicians who had been itching for a war with Russia for years just got one out of luck though. The US interacting with Russia is a little bit different than you interacting with some criminal that lives in the same city as you, subject to the same laws as you and I. In fact, if given the opportunity, the majority of Austin would shred the constitution and turn the US into a communist nation. Within not just our own country, but within the city you work, people see life through two entirely different lenses, yet somehow, you expect the Russian government to see things the way you do and react in a way you would. It would be nice if the whole world were actually that simple.
     

    BigRed

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    My unpopular opinion: Ukraine(Nato) v Russia is extended wargame. Just excuse to test out next gen warfare: drones, etc.

    Mil Industrial complex needs to deplete stockpiles to justify new orders. Another tax.

    Fear is big motivator- got Nato few new members. Concessions will be provided to participants- some oil, a port or 2.

    The soldiers are expendable, unfortunately.

    Indeed.
    If putin was unwanted I would have my $16B already.
     
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