Ukraine War and Politics

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  • cycleguy2300

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    I see we are working on another Ukraine war fund. Serious question. How much money would it take for Ukraine to defeat Russia? The reason I ask is if we aren't going to pro ide enough support to win, then why provide any at all. I don't understand us slow rolling their bank accounts with tons of cash just to lose.

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    I dont have a dollar amount, but bullies bully until they are stopped. I think deep and targeted supply of effective support (stand-off weapons, armor, artillery and TRAINING) that russia know would not fade with the next cause-du-jour (coughisrealcough, but they too deserve support) would have russia retreating.

    Even providing technical skills and a few one-off weapons to take out a major bridge (Kerch) could have a SIGNIFICANT impact with a cost that is probably within the accounting errors of the US Military...

    I think the slow-rolling support is because the left actually has much more in common with russia than they do Ukraine and a slow bloody war costs only another nation's lives, money they didnt earn and it is politically expedient to have what was a world superpower rather busy.

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    Havok1

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    I see we are working on another Ukraine war fund. Serious question. How much money would it take for Ukraine to defeat Russia? The reason I ask is if we aren't going to pro ide enough support to win, then why provide any at all. I don't understand us slow rolling their bank accounts with tons of cash just to lose.

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    Winning takes more than just money, as we have seen with every war that we have lost and outspent those we were fighting. The purpose of our money in this war is to make money for politicians. Like I have said in the past, our government is sacrificing Ukraine, not helping them.
     

    Dakar34

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    I see we are working on another Ukraine war fund. Serious question. How much money would it take for Ukraine to defeat Russia? The reason I ask is if we aren't going to pro ide enough support to win, then why provide any at all. I don't understand us slow rolling their bank accounts with tons of cash just to lose.

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    I very seriously doubt that any amount of $ would win it without NATO troops helping with the fighting. I also doubt that Russia would refrain from using tactical nukes if it was losing. Assuming that we aren't just looking to bleed Russia w/no personnel at risk, the only logical strategy I can see that we might have is we're thinking Russia will eventually give up and pull out.
     

    leVieux

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    I very seriously doubt that any amount of $ would win it without NATO troops helping with the fighting. I also doubt that Russia would refrain from using tactical nukes if it was losing. Assuming that we aren't just looking to bleed Russia w/no personnel at risk, the only logical strategy I can see that we might have is we're thinking Russia will eventually give up and pull out.
    <>

    Ukraine won’t ever ‘’defeat’’ Russia.

    Eventually we’ll see a brokered deal in which Russia gets to keep most of the Donbas, & maybe one seaport.

    Our support is being used to attrit Russian personnel & material.

    Russia can resupply by land, we have a 5,000 mile distance issue.

    <>
     

    studenygreg

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    I very seriously doubt that any amount of $ would win it without NATO troops helping with the fighting. I also doubt that Russia would refrain from using tactical nukes if it was losing. Assuming that we aren't just looking to bleed Russia w/no personnel at risk, the only logical strategy I can see that we might have is we're thinking Russia will eventually give up and pull out.
    You may very well be correct. Then why keep sending more money. I guess I just don't understand the point in half ass doing anything.

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    Dakar34

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    You may very well be correct. Then why keep sending more money. I guess I just don't understand the point in half ass doing anything.

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    IMHO it only makes sense if Ukraine winning is not our actual goal. That being said, Hanson's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
     

    Havok1

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    EUCOM and the assistant SECDEF for international security affairs testified in front of the House Armed Services committee the other day about the proxy war, mostly centered around funding for it. There was not a consensus on what Russias goals are. There was also not a consensus on what our goals are, other than Russia failing, which there was not a consensus on what that looks like. Despite ukraine wanting all of our money and equipment, and half of the people in that room wanting to send it to them, they have not received any info from Ukraine on what a victory would look like to them. The focus of the necessity of the funding was also not that it would win the war, but that it was necessary to continue the war. We have presidential candidates, congressmen, theater commanders, and the DOD that all want to provide money to Ukraine, but are all on different pages. Whether you want to fund the war or not, that is not a recipe for success.
     

    cycleguy2300

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    EUCOM and the assistant SECDEF for international security affairs testified in front of the House Armed Services committee the other day about the proxy war, mostly centered around funding for it. There was not a consensus on what Russias goals are. There was also not a consensus on what our goals are, other than Russia failing, which there was not a consensus on what that looks like. Despite ukraine wanting all of our money and equipment, and half of the people in that room wanting to send it to them, they have not received any info from Ukraine on what a victory would look like to them. The focus of the necessity of the funding was also not that it would win the war, but that it was necessary to continue the war. We have presidential candidates, congressmen, theater commanders, and the DOD that all want to provide money to Ukraine, but are all on different pages. Whether you want to fund the war or not, that is not a recipe for success.
    Ukraine has been very clear about what they would like victory to look like:

    All pre-2014 Ukrainian territory returned to Ukrainian control.

    I don't think its too much to ask either., it actually seems like a pretty logical desire.

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    Dakar34

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    You may very well be correct. Then why keep sending more money. I guess I just don't understand the point in half ass doing anything.

    Sent from m

    Ukraine has been very clear about what they would like victory to look like:

    All pre-2014 Ukrainian territory returned to Ukrainian control.

    I don't think its too much to ask either., it actually seems like a pretty logical desire.

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    Could’ve had it (did have it), had they not (until they) listened to the D’s and neo-con's siren song and declared for the USA against their neighbor. C’est la vie and here we are.
     
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    Havok1

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    Ukraine has been very clear about what they would like victory to look like:

    All pre-2014 Ukrainian territory returned to Ukrainian control.

    I don't think its too much to ask either., it actually seems like a pretty logical desire.

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    Maybe talk show hosts and random people on the internet who are not decision makers have been clear about what they want, but the people demanding aid are not making it clear to the people they are demanding it from.
     

    BigRed

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    I guess I just don't understand the point in half ass doing anything.

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    putin the great satan seems to be a sacred cow.


    War is a big money maker for those not paying for it. It will go on as long as those being forced to pay for it continue to tolerate the bull****
     

    cycleguy2300

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    Could’ve had it (did have it), had they not (until they) listened to the D’s and neo-con's siren song and declared for the USA against their neighbor. C’est la vie and here we are.
    WTF!!

    Ukraine didnt "declare for the USA" in 2014 they wanted to throw off the chains of the soviets for good, just as the Baltics and Poland had so they could be FREE and did turn west, because russia is veiled sovietism.

    Even if Ukraine had asked for American Statehood, it wouldn't have justified russia invading and taking what wasn't theirs to take and anyone who says otherwise is subscribed to the basic tenets of russian-centric globalism.

    Go tell your handlers you're not going to make headway here spreading lies.

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    Dakar34

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    WTF!!

    Ukraine didnt "declare for the USA" in 2014 they wanted to throw off the chains of the soviets for good, just as the Baltics and Poland had so they could be FREE and did turn west, because russia is veiled sovietism.

    Stop lying about the facts and tell your handlers you're not going to make headway here.

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    I can remember being on my way to class at UH and hearing on the radio how leftist Grenada was claiming they were under attack by US forces. I thought "No way, we're not the Japanese, out pulling sneak attacks!" In fact they were; our forces quickly overran the island and got rid of the gov't we didn't want in our neighborhood.
    Yes, anyone who disagrees with you is a Russian mole or some shit. Boring, but a clear indication you can't refute the argument.
    When the piles of bodies get high enough the war will end, and not the way Zelensky wants.
     
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    cycleguy2300

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    I can remember being on my way to class at UH and hearing on the radio how leftist Grenada was claiming they were under attack by US forces. I thought "No way, we're not the Japanese, out pulling sneak attacks!" In fact they were; our forces quickly overran the island and got rid of the gov't we didn't want in our neighborhood.
    Yes, anyone who disagrees with you is a Russian mole or some shit. Boring, but a clear indication you can't refute the argument.
    When the piles of bodies get high enough the war will end, and not the way Zelensky wants.

    You have presented nothing but red (soviet) herring.

    The USA doing something wrong in the 1980s doesn't justify russia doing something 100x worse today.

    I condemn them both, but you only seem interested in condemning the USA, but excusing the soviets/russian evils to the detriment of Ukriane.

    But as much in error as the USA may have been entering Grenada there were real threats to our citizens abroad and last I checked Grenada had been turned over to themselves to govern and wasn't part of the USA.

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