Uniform Collectors

[Mad John]

Are there any collectors of uniforms? US or foreign, friend or foe?
My father's best friend a WWII veteran of the War in Europe is getting on in years (96) gave me this partial uniform that he had stored away. It was carefully folded, wrapped in tissue paper in an old cedar chest. His uniform was also there and is being donated to a local history Society. These two uniform pieces were kept and not shared with family members because of what it represents. He said he kept it as relic and a reminder of what he fought against only for himself and preserve the true image of evil and hate that mankind can do to each other. He want me do what ever I wanted with it as long as I never told where it came from. His family would never understand for some obvious reasons.
I wanted to have it cleaned because of the strong mothball smell but I have not because of what it is. I hanged in a clothes bag in y garage for months until the smell went away. The only other uniforms I have are mine from my service in the US Navy.

Any ideas???

 

[toddnjoyce]

@majormadmax

 

[Mad John]

@majormadmax

I do not understand your reply?

 

[toddnjoyce]

I do not understand your reply?

He collects uniforms of a different era, so using
@ in front of his username, he gets a notification to drop by.

 

[majormadmax]

I collect US and Russian/Warsaw Pact items but have always avoided German WWII items due to the high amount of fakes.

I do not understand your reply?

He is calling my attention to this thread.

I collect US and Soviet/Warsaw Pact items, but have steered clear of German WWII items over the years due to a lack of in-depth knowledge on them and the large number of fakes which exist.

I had two grandfathers that fought on the German side during that conflict but sadly I don't have any of their items (other than a few pictures) nor do I have a lot history on either (one was killed on the Eastern Front).

I do, however, have a friend who has excellent research skills; and I will reach out to him to see if he can provide any insights. He's helped me tremendously in finding information about the Opa I lost before I was born.

I'll post back once I hear something.

 

[majormadmax]

Wow, I knew my buddy would know; but I didn't expect such a detailed response!

The uniform shown is for a Waffen-SS LtCol serving in the 1. SS Panzer Division (Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler).

The badging:

The cuff title reads Adolf Hitler in Sutterlin script and is embroidered in silver bullion

The sleeve eagle is also in silver bullion. SS wore their version of the national emblem on the sleeve vs on the right breast of the Heer, Kriegsmarine, and Luftwaffe as they were not considered a branch of the military.

The collar patches include the generic SS cypher worn by most W-SS members (some units had division-specific collar tabs). The other shows the wearer's rank. In this case, an Obersturmbannfuhrer -- equivalent to LtCol in the Army/Luftwaffe.

The shoulderboards have a pink underlayer -- indicating this officer served as a panzer officer. The single pip on each board shows the rank. And the monogram is LAH -- Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler -- which is the 1st SS Pnz Div.

The ribbon on the lapel is for award of the Iron Cross, 2nd Class.

On the right sleeve is the Panzer destruction badge -- awarded for single-handedly destroying an enemy tank.

I'll need to drag out some books to match up the pattern with a time period. These uniforms have reproduced for decades so I would always presume them to be repros. Authentic pieces always prove themselves.

The interior details -- lining material, stamps, seam hems will help determine if it's real or not.

If real, these are worth upwards of $5k on a bad day.

Easy tests:

If you put a blacklight on it, nothing should glow. Modern thread has a lot of synthetics which glow like crazy.

The buttons should be glass. If they're plastic, they're fake.

That black label is known as an RZM tag. They were only used for a specific period of time. If the jacket pattern is from outside that period? Fake.

There are similar tells for the trousers.

 

[oohrah]

Fascinating. If this is indeed a rare find, it has immense historical value. You should have your source write a letter of provenance, and the details surrounding its acquisition.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

Fascinating. If this is indeed a rare find, it has immense historical value. You should have your source write a letter of provenance, and the details surrounding its acquisition.

Yep.
I have a shotgun that I can't remember what I was told years ago (55+), therefore can't prove the provenance.

 

[Mad John]

I know absolutely nothing about this uniform. Nor do I care that much. Just curious. The friend of my father is recently deceased and had refused to talk about it. He was just going to burn it anyway. He was Jewish and kept it as any war souvenir, just for him as a visual reminder of his hatred of NAZIS.
I am not interested in selling the pieces, in respect to him.
Looking at the detailed craftsmanship and quality of the material is quite impressive. The strange thing is that I did try the jacket on. A little snug.
It is currently stored in a garment bag by itself. It is not something that I collect. I do have flags from all of the theaters of battle on both sides, mostly US flags of all eras. In clear conscience I will not sell it!
That is a decision I will have to make.

 

[Mad John]

Fascinating. If this is indeed a rare find, it has immense historical value. You should have your source write a letter of provenance, and the details surrounding its acquisition.

I doubt that this is all that rare as there had to be a good number of these uniforms around after the war. But, I do not know... just curious? I have no respect for NAZIS in any way! Nor do I want to take part in promoting their evil. It was a terrible time in the history of the world and should never be repeated. The Neo-Nazi movement sickens me as to their doctrine and practices.

 

[majormadmax]

I doubt that this is all that rare as there had to be a good number of these uniforms around after the war. But, I do not know... just curious? I have no respect for NAZIS in any way! Nor do I want to take part in promoting their evil. It was a terrible time in the history of the world and should never be repeated. The Neo-Nazi movement sickens me as to their doctrine and practices.

We are talking about a piece of history. Just because it's from a different side doesn't make it less important. Per my buddy, if it is indeed real (these are highly faked), it isn't as common as you claim; and if you're that disgusted with it then hand it over to a party who will appreciate it for what it is and not destroy it.

You don't have to provide any history or provenance, but there are many museums and other institutions around that work hard and unbiasedly to preserve such items, and if you're worried about your conscience it should make you feel better to donate it to someone who will use it to education people on the past instead of burning it.

Honestly, would you destroy a historic firearm based on what side of the war it came from? It's an inanimate object that had no choice in its use, much like this uniform...

 

[Mad John]

We are talking about a piece of history. Just because it's from a different side doesn't make it less important. Per my buddy, if it is indeed real (these are highly faked), it isn't as common as you claim; and if you're that disgusted with it then hand it over to a party who will appreciate it for what it is and not destroy it.

You don't have to provide any history or provenance, but there are many museums and other institutions around that work hard and unbiasedly to preserve such items, and if you're worried about your conscience it should make you feel better to donate it to someone who will use it to education people on the past instead of burning it.

Honestly, would you destroy a historic firearm based on what side of the war it came from? It's an inanimate object that had no choice in its use, much like this uniform...

I cannot disagree with your point! I will find a permanent place for this. I work for a museum that I will approach with this idea. That I donate this anonymously. They can do what they wish with it. I just do not care to collect regalia of that era with exception to a few flags of our enemies. I know that seems kind of hypocritical but I do not display flags of our enemies and they are easier to store. At times I have fun with some of the flags adding things to to them for political reasons.
It was given to me. It cost me nothing but surprise. I could not care less about what it is worth. It isn't eating anything.
Thank you for your words.
I did not intend to cause any controversy. I know there are collectors and was only looking for information.
Here is one just for interest.
Pre-Stalin from 1921 (no star) Bolshevik.

 

[jrbfishn]

When I was 9, we moved from Phoenix to Ft Knox. Just in time for nearly 2 ft of snow. The warmest thing we had was tee shirts. My older brother got one of Pop's old field jackets, I got his OLD by then Eisenhower jacket. I still have it. Somehow it has survived all the years and moves from the early 1950's when Pop got it. I hear they are sought after. Not until I die.
History is History. Truth is truth.
Which side an article belongs to, regardless be it uniform or weapon, is irrelevant. The true history of one side can not be told without the history of the other.
Too many today want to deny that part of history. Something like that keeps the history real. The evil, and the good men that fought it. Without that part, you belittle them and why they fought.
Much like denying the history of the Sharps rifle in the Indian Wars of the west.
You can only forget or deny and then repeat history. You can never erase it.

Sent by an idjit coffeeholic from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

 

[majormadmax]

History is History. Truth is truth.

Speaking of which...

The Lie said to the Truth, "Let's take a bath together, the well water is very nice. The Truth, still suspicious, tested the water and found out it really was nice. So they got naked and bathed. But suddenly, the Lie leapt out of the water and fled, wearing the clothes of the Truth.

The Truth, furious, climbed out of the well to get her clothes back. But the World, upon seeing the naked Truth, looked away, with anger and contempt. Poor Truth returned to the well and disappeared forever, hiding her shame.

Since then, the Lie runs around the world, dressed as the Truth, and society is very happy...

Because the world has no desire to know the naked Truth.

Painting: Truth Coming Out Of The Well, Jean-Léon Gérome, 1896.

 

[jrbfishn]

I have seen that before.
A lot of truth in that.....


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[Mad John]

I whole heartedly AGREE with everything you say.
I am not a collector of uniforms and obviously quite ignorant as to the possible significance of this, I will admit to that.
I called a museum that I have close ties to and explained what I have and will be taking it to them whether it is good bad or indifferent. I do not care.
It will have an appropriate repository for their research.
I have and will make other donations from my "trust" to their mission. I have already made contributions of Wisconsin historical Civil War documents, rosters and letters to them.
So... All IS well!
Thank You for the direction!

 

[Mad John]

When I was 9, we moved from Phoenix to Ft Knox. Just in time for nearly 2 ft of snow. The warmest thing we had was tee shirts. My older brother got one of Pop's old field jackets, I got his OLD by then Eisenhower jacket. I still have it. Somehow it has survived all the years and moves from the early 1950's when Pop got it. I hear they are sought after. Not until I die.
History is History. Truth is truth.
Which side an article belongs to, regardless be it uniform or weapon, is irrelevant. The true history of one side can not be told without the history of the other.
Too many today want to deny that part of history. Something like that keeps the history real. The evil, and the good men that fought it. Without that part, you belittle them and why they fought.
Much like denying the history of the Sharps rifle in the Indian Wars of the west.
You can only forget or deny and then repeat history. You can never erase it.

Sent by an idjit coffeeholic from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

You WIN! I consider myself adequately "slapped down!"
This will have an effect on any further postings I may make.

 

[Mad John]

Speaking of which...

View attachment 258774

The Lie said to the Truth, "Let's take a bath together, the well water is very nice. The Truth, still suspicious, tested the water and found out it really was nice. So they got naked and bathed. But suddenly, the Lie leapt out of the water and fled, wearing the clothes of the Truth.

The Truth, furious, climbed out of the well to get her clothes back. But the World, upon seeing the naked Truth, looked away, with anger and contempt. Poor Truth returned to the well and disappeared forever, hiding her shame.

Since then, the Lie runs around the world, dressed as the Truth, and society is very happy...

Because the world has no desire to know the naked Truth.

Painting: Truth Coming Out Of The Well, Jean-Léon Gérome, 1896.

I consider my ass as severely kicked!

 

[majormadmax]

I consider my ass as severely kicked!

That wasn't anyone's intent. I've just seen far too many historical military artifacts destroyed for similar reasons, and I don't understand the logic behind such thinking.

Preserving history is not glorifying the horrors or suffering of it. In fact, it's quite the opposite; ensuring people never forget and more importantly, never repeat them!

Such rationale applies to everything from uniforms to statues...

 

[Cob]

The reason for destroying history is to allows one to forget past mistakes is a shorter time frame. Thus allowing those mistakes to be repeated more quickly