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  • Texasgrillchef

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    Jul 27, 2018
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    While this isn’t legislation... it does have to do with rules and regulations on recreational land owned or leased by the US Army Corp of engineers.

    Many Texas state parks lease land from the USACE.

    If you carry a firearm on USACE land without permission you can be written a $500 misdemeanor ticket.

    however, these rules will be changing in the future. When exactly it is hard to say.they should change within the next year though. Why?

    In 2018 the USACE lost a case in federal court on these rules (327.13) (Nesbitt v USACE) The federal courts ruled that 327.13 was unconstitutional and violated the 2nd amendment.

    Because of this some park rangers as well as other law enforcement may not always write a ticket. Especially if your not breaking any other laws or other wise being a nuisance and other types of trouble maker problems. Most know that the judges will throw the ticket out, because of its unconstitutional nature and the fact you could appeal to it a higher court for being unconstitutional. The officers know that to do that, will still cost you money to hire a lawyer to do this for you and thus the lawyers fees becomes your “fine”. However if your keeping your gun concealed and not being a troublemaker, you might be ok. But I’m not a lawyer, and it is still technically illegal to carry on USACE property.

    The USACE did have a rule change process with public comment until June of 2020. So the process to have the rule changed is being processed. When they will initiate the rule change though is anyone’s guess.

    In the mean time, you can request from each local director written permission. If you mention Nisbett v USACE and that it was ruled unconstitutional (without being an a$$) most will give you written permission in Texas, providing you have a Texas LTC.
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    etmo

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    The officers know that to do that, will still cost you money to hire a lawyer to do this for you and thus the lawyers fees becomes your “fine”.

    Just to speak to this point:

    The Equal Access to Justice Act (EAJA) makes the United States liable for attorneys' fees f up to $125 per hour in many court cases and administrative proceedings that it loses (and some that it wins) and fails to prove that its position was substantially justified.

    So if they ticket you, and you sue them and win, the EAJA means that the USA will pay for your lawyers fees (or part of them) most of the time.

    Probably still nicer to ask first, but even if they say "no", you can recoup all or some of any lawyer fees incurred. Get the right judge in the right district -- one that has seen 30 or 40 of these cases so far, and you'll probably never have to see the inside of a courtroom at all, because the lawyers for the government know it's already a loss, and they'll settle to avoid pissing off the judge and wasting their time.
     

    Shotgun Jeremy

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    That's interesting to know etmo.

    In my experience, the majority of law enforcement aren't keeping up with court cases, or even the intricacies of the law. They seem to know the generalities, and maybe specifics related to more common issues such as traffic law. You may want to be cautious about expecting any park rangers to know about this court case.
     

    etmo

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    That's interesting to know etmo.

    In my experience, the majority of law enforcement aren't keeping up with court cases, or even the intricacies of the law. They seem to know the generalities, and maybe specifics related to more common issues such as traffic law. You may want to be cautious about expecting any park rangers to know about this court case.

    Sorry if I wasn't clear -- I have zero expectations that any park ranger would know about such things. I'm just noting that if you're unlucky enough to get ticketed from a ranger who is ignorant of the aforementioned case law, there is less to fear from lawyers fees than one might think.
     

    jordanmills

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    That's interesting to know etmo.

    In my experience, the majority of law enforcement aren't keeping up with court cases, or even the intricacies of the law. They seem to know the generalities, and maybe specifics related to more common issues such as traffic law. You may want to be cautious about expecting any park rangers to know about this court case.
    I had a local deputy constable try to tell me that it's illegal for "civilians" to carry guns in government buildings. I just gave her "the look".
     

    mitchntx

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    Would the rule change apply to Big Bend NATIONAL Park?

    Last few years I've been taking the dirt bike down there with some friends and riding the trails inside the park, the BB state park and BB ranch roads. OK to carry on the ranch roads, but you never know when a trail will cross into the national or state park.
     

    Fishkiller

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    There was a law change several years back, like 2010 or so. Anyway you are allowed to carry in a national park as long as you follow the rules of the state that park is in. Now as I recall you can carry in Big Bend as long as you are legal to carry in Texas, except for any "Federal Building" at the park. If you go to Sequoia National Park in California you need a California carry permit, and they do not recognize Texas, so no go there. So the park headquarters is off limits, and no discharge of said firearm in the park. The link below confirms what I have posted.

     

    Texasgrillchef

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    Would the rule change apply to Big Bend NATIONAL Park?

    Last few years I've been taking the dirt bike down there with some friends and riding the trails inside the park, the BB state park and BB ranch roads. OK to carry on the ranch roads, but you never know when a trail will cross into the national or state park.

    National parks follow the law of the state they are in.. You can currently carry in Big bend, if you have a texas ltc.
     

    Younggun

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    You can not carry inside any Federal Building, on any land. Anywhere.

    You realize there are lots on government buildings that aren’t federal buildings, right? The majority of them actually.


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    SureNot

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    May 18, 2020
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    While this isn’t legislation... it does have to do with rules and regulations on recreational land owned or leased by the US Army Corp of engineers.

    Many Texas state parks lease land from the USACE.

    If you carry a firearm on USACE land without permission you can be written a $500 misdemeanor ticket.

    however, these rules will be changing in the future. When exactly it is hard to say.they should change within the next year though. Why?

    In 2018 the USACE lost a case in federal court on these rules (327.13) (Nesbitt v USACE) The federal courts ruled that 327.13 was unconstitutional and violated the 2nd amendment.

    Because of this some park rangers as well as other law enforcement may not always write a ticket. Especially if your not breaking any other laws or other wise being a nuisance and other types of trouble maker problems. Most know that the judges will throw the ticket out, because of its unconstitutional nature and the fact you could appeal to it a higher court for being unconstitutional. The officers know that to do that, will still cost you money to hire a lawyer to do this for you and thus the lawyers fees becomes your “fine”. However if your keeping your gun concealed and not being a troublemaker, you might be ok. But I’m not a lawyer, and it is still technically illegal to carry on USACE property.

    The USACE did have a rule change process with public comment until June of 2020. So the process to have the rule changed is being processed. When they will initiate the rule change though is anyone’s guess.

    In the mean time, you can request from each local director written permission. If you mention Nisbett v USACE and that it was ruled unconstitutional (without being an a$$) most will give you written permission in Texas, providing you have a Texas LTC.

    I live next to Benbrook Lake: https://www.swf-wc.usace.army.mil/benbrook/

    Is it suggested that I should request permission to possess a my every day carry pistol by citing this case? If-so-facto I'd need to know an attorney.
     

    candcallen

    Crotchety, Snarky, Truthful. You'll get over it.
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    Jul 23, 2011
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    Little Elm
    I live close to a lake. Our city parks on the lake are all COE land, as are many parks that abut a COE lake.

    Concealed is concealed after all. So no issues ever. Not that I would ever break a law or trespass anywhere.

    One thing I dont know is if there is a standard "right of way" for such areas or is it a legacy thing?

    ETA looking at the maps it appears to be a legacy thing not specific right of way. Meaning the land was intended to be the maximum flood capacity of the lake and access to those areas.
     
    Last edited:

    Texasgrillchef

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    Jul 27, 2018
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    I live next to Benbrook Lake: https://www.swf-wc.usace.army.mil/benbrook/

    Is it suggested that I should request permission to possess a my every day carry pistol by citing this case? If-so-facto I'd need to know an attorney.

    not unless you want to send an official demand letter and try to sue.

    I got mine without using a lawyer.

    I simply emailed the director, cited the case nesbitt v usace and that i am requesting a permission letter for the lake until the usace officially changes its rules.

    If they reject and deny the letter. then you can involve a lawyer.
     

    SureNot

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    May 18, 2020
    29
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    Fort Worth
    not unless you want to send an official demand letter and try to sue.

    I got mine without using a lawyer.

    I simply emailed the director, cited the case nesbitt v usace and that i am requesting a permission letter for the lake until the usace officially changes its rules.

    If they reject and deny the letter. then you can involve a lawyer.

    All emails are official : D but if things start to feel important I do prefer to use an attorney. I'll do a bit more research to see if I can get more sense of all this through my thick skull, and if I'll draft an email to: who it may concern.
     
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