US Marines Vs. our US Second Amendment

[djspump2003]

The few people that survived Waco were all exonerated in the name of defending themselves b/c the LEOs never announced themselves upon invading the compound.

I've always been afraid of the case where I am up against one of the few bad LEOs out there. Even if you dispatch a bad LEO in self-defense, the rest of the force is going to be after you and we all know how those typically end. However, I haven't ever been for dying in my sleep or letting the bad guy win either. It sounds like you would almost never encounter such a situation other than during a natural disaster like happened in New Orleans.

You should never follow an un-lawful order. I think that was even proven in the courts for Vietnam, if you shouldn't know that from your own morals. If you defend yourself against someone following an unlawful order, then you should be justified.

 

[claymore504]

Survey conducted at 29 Palms

What is wrong with what he said? He explained that he would not want to be in the situation where he would be forced to use deadly force on an American. This would have been likely with all the criminals and thugs who decided to come out and "help" the city. As for the Guard soldiers going door to door evacing people at gun point, it looked to me that the police seemed to be at a very higher aggression level. My unit was at JRTC with the Louisiana soldiers getting ready to go to Iraq. After months of combat training they got sent to to that instead of go to Iraq.

 

[Shorts]

Ah! The Hurricane Katrina/Rita incident. I remember it well, my lady. I was called to arms with the Texas State Guard and was very surprised to see what transpired there. Afterwards, I was privileged (as a senior NCO) to attend a meeting in the FEMA hole north of Dallas (Where the President goes in a national emergency) and LTC. Young from Mr. Rumsfeld’s office gave us an AAR on the issue.

He mentioned several times that U.S. Soldiers in the New Orleans area were doing things that were prohibited under Constitution and Title 10 law. We even talked about the video of the General yelling at soldiers with weapons to “Put those damn thing way… NOW!”

We got an ear full of what Title 10 and 32 was all about and what it means to be a soldier/sailor sworn to protect U.S. Citizens and Constitution against all enemies (and how some of the soldiers were bordering on violating their oath).

My team was a Military Police team (yes, I was in charge of it) and even though I was a Title 32 soldier, as a full time civilian firefighter and a retired U.S. Army Nurse, my mind is always in a Humanitarian Mode.

All U.S. Military personnel should be familiar with Sir Robert Peel, Mr. August Volmer, and the U.S. Constitution when ever dealing with the Civilian Community. A familiarization with these three will show that

• The U.S. Military is always subordinate to the Civilian Authorities.
• The Castle Doctrine clearly indicates that we are all equal shareholders in the country and therefore each has equal rights under the law.
• The difference between Law Enforcement and Civilian is not “Power and Authority”, but “Jurisdiction”. Each of us as freemen of a free country.
• Police officers must be trained, tested and held to a higher standard than those they are sworn to protect.
• The effectiveness of policing is measured by the absence of crime and not by how one reacts to crime.

Tom, first off thank you for your service.

Second, thanks for the insight on your experience specific to this Katrina issue.

I certainly don't meant to imply that handling a situation like that should be easy, but that cooler, smarter heads should prevail in such a delicate time. Not only is there chaos from the natural disaster aspect, but teetering on crossing oaths and constitutionality on that large scale, that's big.

Good post!

 

[txinvestigator]

 

[kville79]

Preparedness: Post what you're hearing on the street - Page 171 - Stormfront White Nationalist Community

Check out the web site type, thread topic, and check out post 1708.

Yep, radical conspiracy folks. So much for credibility.

Rotflmao.... nice catch, I haven't seen that website in a few years, I used to pop into there every once in awhile for a healthy debate.



The Katrina incident is a big stain on the National Guards record in my book. It was some really ignorant officers carrying out some really bad orders. To be honest that's where I place the blame.. if the commanding officers of those companies, and or their platoon leaders had spoken out against such actions or refused to carry them out... it would have ended right there. This is something that's been bantered around my unit a few times, and everyone I've talked to agrees with me.

 

[Old Man of the Mountain]

What I have heard is that any Soldier who is given a questionable order should request a written order from that Officer or NCO.

The thinking behind that is that an Officer or NCO might have the guts to issue an illegal order verbally, but not when it comes to putting that in writing.

That always sounded like good advice to me!

 

[tomharkness]

Well, the fact is that a Commissioned Officer is commissioned by the Government to follow their orders... Enlisted are hired to obey the Commissioned Officer's orders. If an illegal order is issued, the Enlisted has to follow it or be held in violation of a lawful order… a court martial offense. The enlisted, therefore, cannot be held liable while it is the commissioned officer that is responsible.

That is the precedence when out of country and dealing with foreign nationals. However, it is much more difficult a subject when dealing with U.S. Citizens on U.S. Soil. We are all co-owners under the Constitution and equal under the law… and soldiers are sworn to support officers that are sworn to recognize and respect that Constitution. So what happens when that Officers loses focus on that responsibility? Is the Enlisted still required to follow that officer? The answer is “YES”. It is not the place of the Enlisted to judge an officer commissioned by the government, nor is it the place of an enlisted to decide that the officer is violating the oath. It is the place of the Squad leader to report the issue up the chain of command and let the O’s deal with it. The squad leader is the only enlisted that is recognized as part of the chain of command (at least in the Army).

Where I would hold the Enlisted responsible is that they should have keep accurate records of the firearms that they confiscated and reported it up the Chain appropriately. That way, irrespective of right or wrong, appropriate individuals could get it corrected in the end. These enlisted in New Orleans should have kept accurate records of these firearms and then turned copies over to the courts as necessary so that they could follow the chain of custody. That is where some failed seriously.

 

[tomharkness]

Wow! Fellas: Before you get ready to go on a lynching party… When I said that LTC Young had pointed out that some soldiers were in violation of the Constitution and the Title 10 laws, I did not mean that any soldiers had committed human rights violations.

To my knowledge, there were no violations of human rights by the military. The violations had nothing to do with maliciousness or meanness, but were due to ignorance of what this country is all about; quite possible due to decades of Teacher’s Unions and public schools indoctrinating children into socialism and away from Freedom and “We the People”.

LTC Young pointed out that Title 10 soldiers can only be used to augment and support civil authorities in support of the infrastructure. Law Enforcement by Title 10 soldiers is something that must be approved by Congress and only under specific circumstances (insurrection and treason). In a Humanitarian role, Commanders are encouraged to “Jump in” quickly… but they still need to have Congressional approval.

The National Guards (called up under federal rules) are Title 10 and can only be used in a Civil Affairs role: (why many Military Police are being converted to Civil Affairs). They can be marched into any community to provide Utilities, Medical support, Communications, and thousands of other supportive roles…. Policing is at the very bottom of that list.

Please don’t assume that I was saying that LTC Young was telling us that the U.S. Military was doing something really bad. Many of these units were simply doing something stupid. More to the point, these military units were doing what they were trained to do in foreign lands… but had never been properly oriented to how this should be modified for use on U.S. soil. Rather than condemning them for their actions, there is a real need for education. “We the People” means every U.S. Citizen….EVERYONE!!!

 

[onac255]

I almost spit out my water when I read this one!!!

 

[SIG_Fiend]

Where I would hold the Enlisted responsible is that they should have keep accurate records of the firearms that they confiscated and reported it up the Chain appropriately. That way, irrespective of right or wrong, appropriate individuals could get it corrected in the end. These enlisted in New Orleans should have kept accurate records of these firearms and then turned copies over to the courts as necessary so that they could follow the chain of custody. That is where some failed seriously.

The one self evident truth (remember that phrase) from this situation is that almost no one in the US government seems to trust one single person in this country. By their actions they tell us every day that none of us can be trusted. TV shows show us all day how none of us can be trusted, but the benevolent heroes of said TV shows do things in violation of our fourth amendment rights anyways to save the day and protect everyone regardless (IE - most fictional shows about police these days). Can you say social conditioning? Non profit groups campaign entirely based on this distrust. Presidential candidates practically tell us straight to our faces why we can't be trusted, and how big brother government is going to run our untrustworthy lives for us. We can't be trusted to defend our lives, defend our property. We can't be trusted to tie our shoes without the government telling us how to do it and by what regulations and standards said shoes should be tied, and then asking us if said shoes are even properly registered. I don't know at what point our government decided that we, as a whole, are not to be trusted however the last century has shown the American people some of the most contemptuous and disrespectful treatment by our government out of any in the modern world (only surpassed by that of genocidal dictatorships).

The point of my little rant is this is all BS. The only group whose actions have garnered any distrust is that of the American government. Time and time again, regardless of who's in office, the US government continually earns that distrust EVERY single time. I think a majority of the American people are sick and tired of it. Going door to door and taking away our most basic and most important right (should have been numbered the 1A instead of the 2A) is quite possibly the most heinous display of distrust any government can show it's citizenry. Stop being apologists for those involved (speaking generally here, not anyone specific). They were completely wrong in their actions. Court martial or no, where were the good men to do the right thing (refuse) when the situation called for it? You know a small group of "outlaws" started this country in the face of arrest, conviction and summary execution. However it was the right thing to do so they did it regardless. What happened to principle these days?

 

[Old Man of the Mountain]

I really don't know what would have happened otherwise, but military agents of the LEGAL GOVERNMENT attempted to seize Citizen's firearms on April 19, 1775, and that prompted a backlash on that day which became known as "the Shot Heard 'Round the World".

 

[kville79]

LTC Young pointed out that Title 10 soldiers can only be used to augment and support civil authorities in support of the infrastructure. Law Enforcement by Title 10 soldiers is something that must be approved by Congress and only under specific circumstances (insurrection and treason). In a Humanitarian role, Commanders are encouraged to “Jump in” quickly… but they still need to have Congressional approval.

Very true... but never quite followed, be it good or bad policy Title 10 soldiers where also used to end segregation in schools. A good cause, but those troops where called up by the Federal Govt. not the state, blunder or overstepping boundaries... I don't know. There has also been many more incidents where Title 10 soldiers where used in CONUS, non-wartime, that didn't meet those above stated standards.

The National Guards (called up under federal rules) are Title 10 and can only be used in a Civil Affairs role: (why many Military Police are being converted to Civil Affairs). They can be marched into any community to provide Utilities, Medical support, Communications, and thousands of other supportive roles…. Policing is at the very bottom of that list.

Military police being converted to CA? this is the first time I've heard about this. First and foremost, CA (civil affairs) do not, nor will the ever, be part of the National Guard. 2nd CA falls under USACAPOC (US Army Civil Affairs and Psychological Operations) which had reserve components that only RECENTLY (within the last few years) falls under USARC. Before this USACAPOC fell under SOCOM (active duty units still do). Being a member of USACAPOC myself I feel offended (nothing against you personally, but just the concept) that someone thinks that MP's have anywhere near the correct training to do CA's Job. Kinda how I feel about IO thinking they can do PsyOps Job. This is just a personal rant...

..... Many of these units were simply doing something stupid.

That's the truth.

More to the point, these military units were doing what they were trained to do in foreign lands… but had never been properly oriented to how this should be modified for use on U.S. soil.

Excellent point, and so very true. Soldiers and Marines are trained to very specific tasks, and the training is oriented towards the expected battlefield, with an expected enemy. Up until Iraq all the FM's and training was oriented towards a conventional war, focused heavily on large manuevers, small unit patrol's etc... very little was taught on how to deal with the local populace. With that kind of training my Marine unit spent some time in Kosovo, when I look at it now we could have done our job 10x more effectively if we knew how to deal with civilians better than just tearing apart small towns looking for weapons.

Tom I would like to add that you seem like a very intelligent person who seems well versed in the ongoings, I agree with everything you've said so far... except the MP's to CA thing of course.

 

[tomharkness]

Sig Fiend......

The first thing that we need to understand is that trust is not the problem. The fact of the matter is: no one really can be trusted. We are all different and think different. I don’t mind that the U.S. Government does not trust us. Our forefathers knew that no one could be trusted. That is why they took more than 60 years to design our Constitution. They knew that no “ONE” could be trusted to lead the country and therefore a system had to be put into effect that would allow the best effort of the consensus to be followed. They wrote up a document that would prevent any one person or even a group of individual from taking over and destroying the Country. They designed it so that

• no one person would be king: we would all be kings/queens of our own castle (i.e. Castle Doctrine – not a modern-day idea)
• the Constitution did not regulate the States (until 14th Amendment) and only prohibited the Federal Government from getting involved in States Rights.
• 51 percent of the people (or their representatives) would be necessary to make laws.
• 75 percent of the people (or their representatives) would be necessary to change the Constitutional Laws.

Did you know that we are the only country on the planet that does not have a name?
Unlike Mexico, Canada, France… and so on. We are the only country that is identified by it’s conglomeration of States (i.e. United States of America). That was intentional. Our forefathers did not want a “Sovereign” nation, but a united pact of Sovereign States that would recognized each other (i.e. All for One and One for All).

The final draft of the constitution was just for that: later the States came back and ask to have 12 Amendments to the “Pact” that would prevent the Federal Government from getting involved in specific States Rights. Only 10 of them were ratified and are now known as the “Bill of Rights” (so called after the 14th Amendment).

Over the last 6 or 7 decades, there has been a radical attempt to circumvent the Constitution by: 1. indoctrinating our children into believing there is a better (fair) way of doing it. 2. adding in socialist programs designed to fail but advertised as designed to help… so that when they fail, the leaders can use that as an excuse for why the original system will not work. 3. Convince the people that a King would be better (from the Bible where the politicians became corrupt and the people prayed to God for a King). 4. provide gifts, food, shelter for the people to encourage laziness in order to slowly enslave them by their own stupidity. Note that the Hebrews moved into Egypt to partake of the food stores during the “7” years of famine and continued to suck that government tit for more than 600 years…. Eventually becoming willing slaves. 5. Elect and appoint individuals to the Three Branches of Government that would randomly interpret the Constitution in distorted, corrupt, and confusing way so as to confuse the original intent.

What we need is a clear understanding of what our forefathers meant by the “Castle Doctrine” and then teach these ideas to our children. Any ideas?

 

[robocop10mm]

"Just following orders" did not save the SS in the aftermath of WWII. A soldier/police officer has a duty to disobey an UNlawful order. The problem is many times they are not trained/educated enough to understand what it lawful and what is unlawful so they just obey anything and everything.

Governments are not inclined to educate their soldiers/police well enough to allow them to determine what is lawful and what is unlawful. The officers (military) and supervisors (civilian LE) are supposed to be the educated enough to make these decisions. They are a product of the same system so many if not most do not understand the Constitution nor do they take the time to educate themselves.

I have heard City officers say that XYZ is a violation of statute ABC when XYZ is clearly NOT a violation of any statute. I have seen LE action taken based on a training instructor's interpretation of the law. When I point out that the interpretation is incorrect, they just look at me like I am some sort of heretic.

Stupidity knows no boundries.

 

[tomharkness]

Robocop10mm........ Never, ever, underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. Our forefathers spent almost a century working on our constitution in an effort to make a system that would never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups, but never imagined that the group would get that large.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

I propose a new ban! It will make for a safer society, and have the added benefit of single-handedly turning around our economy due to the funds generated from citations/tickets as a result of said ban. To accurately and appropriately enact this ban, it will be tough as we will have to more completely define the subject of this ban and all of it's characteristics so as to develop a framework from which to regulate said ban. The ban in question will be a complete ban on STUPIDITY. This ban will hereby become permanent after the date of enactment. All acts of stupidity will warrant a fine of no less than $100, no more than $99 trillion dollars, and prison sentences (without the possibility of parole) of no less than 1 day to no greater than 300 years. A fine of 99 trillion dollars and prison sentence of 300 years will be reserved for unbelievable and extreme acts of stupidity of which the educated adult mind finds to be incomprehensible and in defiance of the laws of physics, logic, and all that is sacred in the universe. lol If only it were possible.

 

[Rob1796]

Robocop10mm........ Never, ever, underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. Our forefathers spent almost a century working on our constitution in an effort to make a system that would never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups, but never imagined that the group would get that large.

He speaks the truth. Its up there with the good old never attribute to mallice when stupidty will suffice.

 

[DrBart2]

Interesting thread. I don't have anything to add, but find all your comments interesting.

 

[Old Man of the Mountain]

Governments are not inclined to educate their soldiers/police well enough to allow them to determine what is lawful and what is unlawful. The officers (military) and supervisors (civilian LE) are supposed to be the educated enough to make these decisions. They are a product of the same system so many if not most do not understand the Constitution nor do they take the time to educate themselves.

Now that the Washington Government is bent to create an "American Empire" and is bringing in Government Troops from third world lands where Law's are just laughed at and always ignored:

What will be a LEGAL ORDER in the future?

 

[tomharkness]

Legal orders are orders issued by the legally elected/appointed government. That, of course, is the source of great argument. However, let’s think with our heads and not with our hearts. You don’t have to join the military. You don’t have to take an oath to follow the orders of your superiors. You don’t have to be a soldier. You don't have to be a patriot. You don't have to be an american. It's a FREE country.

My philosophy is this: if someone pays you good money to stick your thumb up your butt and say, “oh that feels good”, you have three choices.

1. take the money, stick your thumb up your butt and say, “oh, that feels good”.

2. refuse the money and tell them that you are more mature than that and that you do not want to be involved in childish behavior.

3. take the money, and then NOT do what you were paid to do.

The first makes you an idiot. The second means you can make rational decisions. The third makes you a liar and thief. Although I prefer to work with those that can make rational decisions, I would rather work with an idiot than a liar and thief.

That said, I would certainly protest an unlawful order if I knew it actually were an “Unlawful” order. When in doubt, I would certainly ask for confirmation. However, I don’t pretend to know everything and I have sworn an oath to follow orders (and I have been paid well to do so).

Don’t take life too seriously: it is not permanent. We put way too much value on human life (that is not to say there is no value on human life!). Much too liberal a thought goes into the idea that human life is all there is, and that we must protect it with such great zeal because it is all we have: when it is gone, there is nothing more. I don’t subscribe to that line of thinking. I believe there is more.

“Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s”.