Use of Force

[Joseph Bell]

Being that I have been debating some stuff in another thread regarding UoF, I am wondering who actually teaches UoF in their Programs of Instruction (POI)? I personally avoid it like a 16 year old ringing the door bell on father’s day. I did teach UoF a few years ago when I was involved in the training of security guards, but decided back then that it was something better left to an expert defense attorney who specialized in UoF. I have since stayed as current as possible, but refuse to add and UoF to my POI’s. Personally I think it comes with way too much liability, I also think it is based too much on interpretation of the actual law.

So I am wondering what some of the other trainers out there think, do you teach it, is it part of your POI, has it been reviewed by a legal advisor (i.e. attorney, UoF specialist, etc)?

 

[txinvestigator]

Are you you referring to the legalities?

 

[Dcav]

First CHL class I taught use of force took up nearly 4 hours. Nearly half of the classroom portion was use of force. Definetly gotta trim that down for the next one.

 

[Joseph Bell]

Yeah I am talking about UoF law, case law and UoF Contiuume.

I get the CHL & security guard instructors have to go over it, but who is teaching POI's outside of the licensing arena, that get into UoF?

 

[txinvestigator]

Yeah I am talking about UoF law, case law and UoF Contiuume.

I get the CHL & security guard instructors have to go over it, but who is teaching POI's outside of the licensing arena, that get into UoF?

Ok. Yes, I teach it in CHL classes and guard training.

 

[Joseph Bell]

I decided to get out of the guard training, mainly due to the amount of legal training (never got into the CHL training for the same reason). Too much is left open to interpretation IMHO and even though I thought I had a grasp on the law back then, I found that the legal system is not black and white as it is written in the law. Too many questions that cannot be answered unless you have firsthand knowledge in how the local LEA and prosecutor works, how they interpret the law and how they view citizens using force or deadly force.

The reason I figured this would be a good discussion back here, is due to that other thread and the “advice” and or “internet lawyers” trying to breakdown a situation that is very open to legal interpretations.

I wanted to know the thoughts of the instructors on here, how they view teaching UoF and the legal liabilities that come along with doing so. I personally won’t take on that liability with my company, it’s not worth the hassle to me, I prefer to focus on the training the skill sets of defense vs the legal aspects of defense.

So a few questions:

1. What qualifies someone to teach or give any advice on the law?
2. What qualifies an instructor to teach UoF and give examples?
3. What is your legal support structure for instructor liability regarding law or UoF law training?
4. Do you simply teach what the authorized book has in it, or do you add personal experience and or advice?

 

[Joseph Bell]

Rereading this I can see how some may take offense to the questions and or decisions I have personally made regarding the topic. I did not post this to offend anyone or in a attempt to state someone is or is not qualified to teach UoF or laws regarding such. I am actually interested in the feedback of the other trainers as to your own opinions on the matter.

Also I current have an attorney I have recommended to many for UoF specific questions, however, I am actively seeking an attorney with experience in UoF law practice, to establish a scenario specific course for the an Advanced level CCW course I am currently working on. If anyone knows or an attorney that may be interested, or has this type of experience I would like to talk to you in PM.

Thanks,

 

[SIG_Fiend]

I've gone a similar route Joseph. I don't address UoF in my classes. Many of the students I instruct will probably rarely, if ever, practice these skills outside of a class and wasting ammo at the range. I've been fortunate that I've had a number of students that are enthusiasts and want to train. Regardless, quite a few may only take 1 or 2 training classes in their lives, if that. Because of that, I try to keep it simple. I stick to the basic fundamentals, building confidence in their manipulation of the gun, and building critical thinking skills through various drills (shoot/no shoot, etc).

In some cases, I think overloading inexperienced people with UoF can be counter-productive. Basically, causing people to increasingly question themselves to the point where they are suffering from paralysis by analysis. At some point, it is a good idea for people to learn UoF to better understand what they can and can't do, and to further enhance their critical thinking skills. I guess the point I'm getting at is, I've seen a significant number of people attending CHL classes from friends, former employers, etc. that are completely new or relatively new to the subject of guns. It seems to me like it would be better to build their self-confidence in fundamentals, gun manipulations, critical thinking skills employing a gun, etc. before inundating them with lots of things to second guess.

A good example of this is the recent shooting involving a teenage mother: Link

Multiple people were kicking down her front door. She had a gun and was on the phone with the 911 operator. She repeatedly asked if she can shoot them, as she was afraid for her life if they got through. End result, everything worked out, she shot and killed 1 and survived. Obviously, she's young and that's a pretty serious situation for a young, widowed mother to be dealing with. Regardless, that sort of question would have been about a nanosecond thought for any of us here I'm sure. A lot of people these days seem to be missing that subconscious resolve. I think over-complicating the subject could be counter-productive as opposed to starting out keeping it simple and progressing from there.

 

[Dcav]

I try to do a common sense approach to UoF. I spent nearly 4 hours of my first CHL class teaching it. Need to trim that way down. The problem with teaching use of force with common sense, is not everyone has common sense lol