Guns International

Use of Lethal Force to Protect Strangers

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Texas

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • sv6er

    Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Nov 26, 2008
    54
    1
    I agree with your concerns, majormadmax, but every situation is different. In some circumstances, the chance that you'll improve the situation might be much higher than the chance than chance that you'll worsen it. Not every situation will be black and white.

    The bottom line is that as long as no shooting has occurred, then there is no justification on a civilian's behalf to start.

    Like I said, I can agree with much of your post, but this, to me, is entirely false.
    Target Sports
     

    TexasRedneck

    1911 Nut
    Lifetime Member
    Rating - 100%
    9   0   0
    Jan 23, 2009
    14,561
    96
    New Braunfels, TX
    The bottom line is that as long as no shooting has occurred, then there is no justification on a civilian's behalf to start.

    Sorry - but I totally disagree. While there will be limited times - there will be times when there is complete and total justification on the part of a civilian to initiate gunfire - but they'd best be very careful when/if they do!
     

    jordanmills

    TGT Addict
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Sep 29, 2009
    5,371
    96
    Pearland, TX
    The bottom line is that as long as no shooting has occurred, then there is no justification on a civilian's behalf to start.
    Incorrect:
    [url]http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/SOTWDocs/PE/htm/PE.9.htm[/URL]
    Sec. 9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON. (a) A person is justified in using deadly force against another:
    (1) if the actor would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.31; and
    (2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
    (A) to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force; or
    (B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.
    Not only is deadly force justified to defend against the immediate threat of unlawful deadly force (eg pointing a gun at someone's head before pulling the trigger), it's also justified for defense against several other crimes.
     

    jgon281

    New Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Feb 15, 2009
    33
    1
    Sugar Land
    Having been a victim of armed robbery myself , I ponder this hypo question ALL the time . Would I shoot a robber or just stay out of the way and let an leo handle the situation? . I'll just have to go with the gut feeling @ the time . No person can totally prepare for a situation like the one in question . I am fed up with criminals but I try to keep my head out of the fog when I carry . Staying level headed and unbiased is my way . cheers guys for this good topic! Hope we all see the next year and continue chatting .
     

    Fisherman777

    Well-Known
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jan 15, 2009
    1,211
    31
    45R
    I have to disagree with the Rambo comparison. It's not Rambo-like to help. Just because someone carries a gun doesn't mean that he/she harbors any ill will toward anyone. Even the bad guys. If in my mind my shot will stop the bad guy from killing or hurting the cashier or other customers without endangering them further and I take the shot. That does not make me a Rambo wannabe. In fact I hope I never have to shoot anybody. Ever. You just have to trust me that that's true and I have to trust other gun carriers as well. Can't go around worrying about other honest gun carrying citizens all day. I'd go crazy and wouldn't get any work done.
     

    txinvestigator

    TGT Addict
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 28, 2008
    14,204
    96
    Ft Worth, TX
    Incorrect:
    http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/SOTWDocs/PE/htm/PE.9.htmhttp://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/SOTWDocs/PE/htm/PE.9.htm

    Not only is deadly force justified to defend against the immediate threat of unlawful deadly force (eg pointing a gun at someone's head before pulling the trigger), it's also justified for defense against several other crimes.
    This section that you quoted, 9.32, is justification for YOURSELF, not a third person.


    The code does make justifications for deadly force to protect a third person. Shooting need not have started. Also, the previous poster's comments about "civilians" leaves me confused. Peace Officers and civilians are under the same law.
     

    navyguy

    TGT Addict
    Emeritus - "Texas Proud"
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Oct 22, 2008
    2,986
    31
    DFW Keller
    If the perp had a SA, unlocked pistol to the clerks head (1911, revolver cocked, DA/SA cocked etc) I think the likelihood of his gun discharging if he where shot is pretty high. Even with a head shot, there is going to be some body movement and a a light SA trigger is like a mouse trap ready to unleash. I'd worry about that. I think if you were going to take action, you would need to yell at him to get him to drop his hold... maybe point at you (yikes!) then take your shot. I honestly don't know what I would do.

    If you've read accounts of such situations, or saw surveillance videos, you know these things happen very quickly. 5-10 seconds in most situations. Hardly enough time to think things trough. I'm not saying it's a bad thing to discuss such things, quite the contrary, it's a good exercise, but just know things will NEVER go down as you envision then.
     

    txinvestigator

    TGT Addict
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 28, 2008
    14,204
    96
    Ft Worth, TX
    I will just say this; until you are exposed to situations like this you may THINK you would do a thing, but you actually may not. That is why Peace Officers are more and more often given force on force training. Even back in 1983, when I was a young academy cadet, we had two different types of training. One was with a live fire projector that had scenarios unfold, the other was force on force using non-firing weapons.

    I'll add another potential problem to the mix; you enter the local stop and rob and there is a man holding a gun to the person at the cash register, ordering him to the ground repeatedly. The clerk is not complying, but staring at the gunman. The gunman is becoming increasingly agitated. The clerk then gets on the ground and the gunman realizes you are there finally, IDs himself as a cop and proceeds to arrest the clerk.

    What you didn't know was that the clerk was actually a robber who had already shot the real clerk, and the gunman, a plainsclothes cop, had walked in on the crime.

    Again, these situations are fluid and not always what they seem. It is noble to think you would engage what you believe to be a bad guy, but how much do you REALLY know about a situation?
     

    TexasRedneck

    1911 Nut
    Lifetime Member
    Rating - 100%
    9   0   0
    Jan 23, 2009
    14,561
    96
    New Braunfels, TX
    TI, you outline exactly why you have GOT to be sure of any scenario before taking action - there's just so many different things that can change the dynamics of a situation. There was a punk smacked by SAPD yesterday or day before - the dipwad TOLD cops he was armed - turned out he wasn't. Unlike the TV shows, the cops are NOT contemplating charges against the officers that shot - when he made a move towards his waistband, they bagged him - justifiably so.
     

    jordanmills

    TGT Addict
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Sep 29, 2009
    5,371
    96
    Pearland, TX
    This section that you quoted, 9.32, is justification for YOURSELF, not a third person.


    The code does make justifications for deadly force to protect a third person. Shooting need not have started. Also, the previous poster's comments about "civilians" leaves me confused. Peace Officers and civilians are under the same law.
    I understood him, in that post, to be speaking in a general sense.
     

    Starker

    Active Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 11, 2009
    799
    21
    The High Ground of Texas
    I absolutely agree that each situation is very different and that you never really know how you will react until you are in the middle of it.

    As a recent CHL recipient, I have taken the time to consider my willingness to use deadly force to protect myself and my family. I think this is an important step toward being a responsible citizen.

    However, I had not yet considered the use of deadly force in other situations, such as protecting others. I just felt it was worth considering before I was faced with having to make the decision within a matter of seconds.

    I do want to express my gratitude to everyone who has participated in this discussion. Your posts have all been very thoughtful. It is nice to have the opportunity to learn from others who have thought about, trained for, or been thrust into this type of situation.
     

    Hawghauler

    Active Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Oct 5, 2009
    638
    21
    Idaho
    I doubt I could walk away from a person in that situation, that would not be a normal response. As the scenario has the perp holding a gun to the head of the victim I think I would wait until the business end of his gun was pointed elsewhere and take my shot if there appeared to be no other option. Training is great to have, (and vital) but real life threats are the true test and you can never predict who passes and who fails. I have seen seasoned veteran (SGT Slaughter looking dudes) soldiers seize up or flee when confronted by the enemy, and I have seen nerdy Poindexter accountant types grab the SAW and start blazing away. You can't judge them by their tattoos, web gear, or war stories. Until you have been in the situation your own reaction is only theory. My hats off to LEOs who do this for a living. Everyone plays Monday morning quarterback after the poor guy makes the decision to use deadly force.
     

    SIG-SOG

    Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Oct 2, 2009
    75
    1
    DFW
    If a clear shot presented itself where I had the luxury of time, I would take the shot, knowing that I could place a shot into the head of the robber. For the other 90% of the situation-types, I would reluctantly retreat.

    I can say with absolute certainty, that if I ran away ... and the teller was executed, I would regret my decision for the rest of my life. Yet another aspect to think about.

    In that situation, a badge shouldn't change your perspective. We all have a duty to protect good innocent people as human beings. Imagine yourself as that teller.

    Sounds great, but then there is always going to be some lawyer or DA that doesn't see it your way and make your life miserable (or more importantly your family's life miserable).
     

    robocop10mm

    Active Member
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    Jan 9, 2009
    996
    21
    Round Rock
    If no shots have been fired, yet, that is a good thing. To start the shooting MAY be a bad thing. Unless you understand EXACTLY what is transpiring before you BE A GOOD, LIVING WITNESS. Your responsibility is #1 to yourself and your immediate family. This is kind of like Vince Lombardi's assesment of the forward pass, there are only three possible outcomes and two of them are bad.

    Section 9.33 of the Texas Penal Code says

    "A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect a third person if:
    (1) under the circumstances as the actor reasonably believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.31(Self Defense) or 9.32 (Deadly Force in Defense of Person) in using force or deadly force to protect himself against the unlawful force or unlawful deadly force he reasonably believes to be threatening the third person he seeks to protect: and
    (2) the actor reasonably believes that his intervention is immediately necessary to protect the third person.

    My interpretation - IF this is in fact an actual robbery (1) is covered reasonably well. If your summation does not match the audio on the store surveillance system, you may be in some trouble (in some jurisdictions). If the robber said "give me the money or I will shoot you", is the intervention immediately necessary? Maybe not. If the robber said "because there was not enough money in the till, I am going to shoot you", you would have a pretty good position to stand on. The shooting was imminent sot the intervention was imminently necessary.

    Remember that most convenience store robberies do not end in gun fire, death or even injury. By firing the first shot, you have guaranteed this robbery will end in gun fire, death or injury. Your intervention may make a bad situation worse. Even as an officer, I would have to think hard about that decision and may not take the shot.
     

    Big country

    TGT Addict
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 6, 2009
    4,318
    21
    Cedar Park,TX
    I'm going to hop in here and say that TI is right and so is Texas Redneck and just about everyone else because it's all hypothetical right now. But these are all things that need to go through your mind before you strap a gun on. When I'm carrying a gun I'm either in uniform (security) or I'm at the range or hunting. I could also be at my house. As robocop 10mm said "your first priority is to your family". I couldn't agree more. I don't have my CHL right now so if I have a gun I'm probably in uniform and standing out as some one who gets shot first. I understand that so if I'm wearing a uniform regardless I'm on guard. Think about these things often and like TexasRedneck said ask your self every time that gun gets strap on if you are really ready to take a human life. It's not Hollywood the bullets are real and the effects are permanent on both sides of the gun.
     

    DRod

    Active Member
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Feb 22, 2009
    215
    1
    I'd like to think I would defend them.
    But at the same time, I have to realize that my first shot would almost certainly trigger return fire from the perp. Where that return fire goes is an unknown but I would still consider myself responsible for them.
    There are too many unknowns to be able to give a definitive answer.
    I'd hope for the best, expect the worst and try my damnedest to prepare my mind for the unthinkable.
     

    Texasjack

    TGT Addict
    Rating - 50%
    1   1   0
    Jan 3, 2010
    5,869
    96
    Occupied Texas
    I tried to find a video I saw on this subject, but couldn't locate it. It was a training class with almost the exact set up as the original post. The instructor pointed out that there is a reasonable chance the robber may eliminate witnesses - either to cover his tracks or just because he's wired up for the robbery. The instructor's guidance was 1) protect yourself by keeping out of the line of fire and with any cover you can get, 2) be prepared to defend yourself or escape, 3) if you have to take action, move laterally (as it really messes up an untrained shooter) and make sure that the direction you're firing will not hit an unintended target (e.g., shoot towards a solid wall), and 4) make sure you know what people may be around. The bad guy could have accomplices, or there could be a cop coming in thinking you are the bad guy.

    We all want to stop bad guys, but the reality is that you may be in a complex situation where the very best thing you can do is stay out of the way.
     

    ROGER4314

    Been Called "Flash" Since I Was A Kid!
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Jul 11, 2009
    10,444
    66
    East Houston
    That is absolutely a No Shoot situation. We are not Cops. The rule of thumb for me is if my life is on the line right then and I am so afraid that I'm peeing my pants, I will shoot. If I can run, I will. If I can't run, I'll shoot.

    Sounds chicken but that's the only way I can carry and not risk losing everything I own or becoming incarcerated. That pistol is like the body part behind your zipper. If you pull it out under any circumstances that are not precisely the right time and the right place, you are going to be in a world of crap.

    Flash
     
    Top Bottom