What can we, as gun owners, advocate for to decrease gun violence in the Us

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  • Sam7sf

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    Agreed. I'm trying to keep my debate civil, and stay away from ad hominem, but it's hard for me...
    It’s a heated topic but he hasn’t called anyone names and his intentions are good. We all see how broken the system is and I disagree with him on how to fix it.

    Texas changed my view on how we handle the drug problem because of how close we are to the border. It’s a drug problem and a culture problem. I’m of the opinion this is a war.
     

    A1Oni

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    Let’s hear him out. He hasn’t called any of us names.
    I'm all for civil discussions, but people who let their emotions get in the way of civil discussions usually dont want to hear the other side, from my experience at least.
     

    A1Oni

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    Don’t take what I post as attacking you. I strongly disagree with not arresting people with drugs on em. Again, if we are talking hard drugs only, we need to arrest people with drugs on them. It’s clear when I say this where I stand on the war on drugs but that’s what it is. Hard drugs are a war on civilized society. If they can’t be arrested with drugs on them then it’s going to be harder to find where they came from. Yes they will talk. Again I’ll use meth as an example because of how it changes the brain. There isn’t a code among meth users.

    Hard drug users are like varmints. You can hold a sign up that says love varmints, but I’m only going to tolerate so much damage to my property and it’s time to remove them. Same for society. No need to give people the ability to get away with crap when it’s really bringing society down the crapper.
    I understand why you disagree because of personal experiences and I respect that
    Was I not civil to you?

    I'm still waiting for your reply... if you want to have a discussion that is...
    oh no you are being nice and respectful, its just some of the other folks here think people are libs or democrats (I am neither a republican nor democrat because those politicians aren't for the people, only for themselves) if they have a radically different viewpoint, when to have a good grasp on a situation you must listen to differing opinions.


    You obviously know suckers.
    you should look in a mirror sometime bub.
     

    bbbass

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    oh no you are being nice and respectful, its just some of the other folks here think people are libs or democrats (I am neither a republican nor democrat because those politicians aren't for the people, only for themselves) if they have a radically different viewpoint, when to have a good grasp on a situation you must listen to differing opinions.

    I'm glad you see my posts to you that way, I'm trying hard.

    Not sure listening to different opinions brings a good grasp of a situation... often it results in confusion, middle of the roadism, or one not being sure where one stands.

    I've read the debate here, as well as elsewhere, and I still cannot make up my mind on what might be the right way to proceed. I can see value and pitfalls in all.

    Tho I am registered Repub, I am philosophically small l libertarian. The Libertarian party is too whack for me!!!
     

    A1Oni

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    I'm glad you see my posts to you that way, I'm trying hard.

    Not sure listening to different opinions brings a good grasp of a situation... often it results in confusion, middle of the roadism, or one not being sure where one stands.

    I've read the debate here, as well as elsewhere, and I still cannot make up my mind on what might be the right way to proceed. I can see value and pitfalls in all.

    Tho I am registered Repub, I am philosophically small l libertarian. The Libertarian party is too whack for me!!!

    as with many things in this life, there is no and will never be a perfect solution, but I feel engaging in discourse with likeminded or even nonlikeminded people is a healthy way to reevaluate or reinforce your opinions and beliefs. I am a firm believer on the idea of free speech and autonomy for the average man, be it buying ATGMs at harbor freight or LSD at 7/11. and some people don't understand that the crux of all the arguments and debates is that in the end the only person who is responsible for themselves, is themselves for better or for worse.
     

    Sam7sf

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    and some people don't understand that the crux of all the arguments and debates is that in the end the only person who is responsible for themselves, is themselves for better or for worse.
    Damned if you do and damned if you don’t. Do I be a Karen or do I live and let live? Often people will find their intentions are good but discover where their line in sand really is on certain issues. Life isn’t black and white. It’s a complicated mess. I can come off as a free spirit with gun control but come off as a radical dick if asked how to fix our drug and immigration problem. Yet the two are connected. I want guns to be everywhere. I want the batf to not be needed. I want the gca torn up. I want these things so my fellow Americans are safe. I also want every illegal out. I want hard drug users behind bars. (Debate on treatment vs punishment here) I want maximum punishment for hard drugs to scare youth enough to do something else with their time. I want this so people are safe.

    I posted a like minded opinion we are responsible for ourselves. Question is: Do we turn the other cheek or take care of the problem when it’s effecting others? At some level harsh drugs effect someone. If it’s not in the streets it’s at home stunting the growth of a kid or whatever else people have witnessed.
     

    Jigo23

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    It really is pretty simple….not sure why people have to complicate the matter so much. If you want to reduce “gun violence” you have to make the penalty for illegal use or possession of a firearm to be severe enough that any perceived reward is just not worth it…risk vs reward plain and simple.
    If you use a gun to commit a crime, you go to jail for life, period end of story. If we are not willing to go to such extremes then we aren’t all that interested in trying to decrease gun violence.
     

    easy rider

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    It really is pretty simple….not sure why people have to complicate the matter so much. If you want to reduce “gun violence” you have to make the penalty for illegal use or possession of a firearm to be severe enough that any perceived reward is just not worth it…risk vs reward plain and simple.
    If you use a gun to commit a crime, you go to jail for life, period end of story. If we are not willing to go to such extremes then we aren’t all that interested in trying to decrease gun violence.
    Any laws that specifically point out guns is "gun control". Are you any more alive if you were killed with a rock?
     

    Axxe55

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    Never said you did.... I said "as BLM wants to do". It was a question in a series of questions, not even addressed to you (there were other members lamenting prisons also), not an accusation. Accusations rarely bring answers to questions. Your reply is an example.

    My question to you then is... what is YOUR plan??? Just exactly HOW would you overhaul the prison system?
    My plan would be to return prisons back into what they use to be before the bleeding heart liberals got all involved in giving inmates more rights and freedoms than law-abiding citizens.

    Inmates would be up before daylight, working in job in the prison until the sun went down. Five to six days a week. Doing some job that either supported the prison being self-supporting or helpig support the community.

    No radio, TV or internet. Access to law library or a regular library. Prison should not be a place of luxury. Prison is about punishment and not rehabilitation.

    Prison should be for all intents, a bad experience that a person does not want a return engagement. I an not saying that any inmate should be beat, whipped or tortured in any way, but, worked from sun-up to sun-down, doing honest physical labor. I would suspect that many return to prison from doing the same thing that got them there before, because they have no fear of prison and they know the gameplan.
    well for one, arresting people for having drugs on them would need to stop, and for two prisoners should have more access to schooling programs and books, and instead of treating common criminals like thieves or scammers like murderers they should be treated like human beings. all the issues that lead to most of the crime in the world are socio economical issues, like poverty, or the availability of work, and some people are simply dealt a bad hand and born in some ghetto. yes there are bad people but ricividism rates would decrease if we didn't treat smaller crimes like mail fraud or wire fraud as felonies and what not.
    You have never been inside a prison have you? They already have access to everything that is available on the outside of prison walls. Inmates can complete high-school and earn a GED. They can attend college classes and get a degree in just about anything but becoming a doctor.

    Socio-economics, or poverty? I believe that is about the second or third time you have referenced that as a reason. You believe that is an underlying cause of drugs or crime? It may be an excuse that some may use, but that isn't the reason in the least. Many commit crimes because they are too lazy to work, or want it now without having to work for it. Or they are supporting a drug habit. And IMO, socio-economics doesn't cut it for drug use. They can't afford the things they need, but they can afford to get drugs? Seriously?

    We are a nation of laws. Those laws are there for a reason for the most part. Whether we agree or disagree with the laws is irrelevant. We don't get to pick and choose as to which ones we will abide, and which ones we are going to disregard. Without laws and enforcement of the laws, and punishment when those laws are broken, you end up with anarchy and chaos. Not order and a mostly peaceful society. Don't like the laws? Then work to get them changed through the process that is lined out to change laws.
    I'm all for civil discussions, but people who let their emotions get in the way of civil discussions usually dont want to hear the other side, from my experience at least.
    Hard not to be emotional to some degree about drugs. In many ways, the vast majority have in some way come in contact with drugs, or people that have or do use drugs.Those emotions a lot of times influence what people think or believe about drugs, or the way drugs should be treated. Since my "accident" involving a dopehead, who left me permanently injured, my viewpoints and opinions have changed radically since then, as what they were before.

    But tweakers and dopeheads need to work too so they can support their drug habit.
     

    bbbass

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    Socio-economics, or poverty? I believe that is about the second or third time you have referenced that as a reason. You believe that is an underlying cause of drugs or crime? It may be an excuse that some may use, but that isn't the reason in the least.

    As I mentioned earlier, that is a theory so commonly spouted that it has become a liberal tripe trope. Here in the PNW it is spouted by those that wish to make excuses for their own weak minded failure to hold others in society responsible for the bad choices those people make. Seattle/Portland/S.F./L.A. are all examples of towns run by people who believe that stuff. They coddle others in society, make excuses for the bad behaviors, and problems get exponentially worse.

    If poverty were truly an underlying cause, then ALL or even most people in poverty would be criminals... yet they AREN'T. "Relation is not causation!" IMO family and culture is a better predictor of who will become a law breaker than poverty.

    Next time a crook robs a bank, gets caught, and tells the judge, "But yer honer, ya cain't convict me, I come from poverty", we'll all have a real good laugh.
     

    A1Oni

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    Damned if you do and damned if you don’t. Do I be a Karen or do I live and let live? Often people will find their intentions are good but discover where their line in sand really is on certain issues. Life isn’t black and white. It’s a complicated mess. I can come off as a free spirit with gun control but come off as a radical dick if asked how to fix our drug and immigration problem. Yet the two are connected. I want guns to be everywhere. I want the batf to not be needed. I want the gca torn up. I want these things so my fellow Americans are safe. I also want every illegal out. I want hard drug users behind bars. (Debate on treatment vs punishment here) I want maximum punishment for hard drugs to scare youth enough to do something else with their time. I want this so people are safe.

    I posted a like minded opinion we are responsible for ourselves. Question is: Do we turn the other cheek or take care of the problem when it’s effecting others? At some level harsh drugs effect someone. If it’s not in the streets it’s at home stunting the growth of a kid or whatever else people have witnessed.
    in my honest opinion the best you can do in life is watch out for yourself, your own, and your homies, and try to do some good for folks.


    My plan would be to return prisons back into what they use to be before the bleeding heart liberals got all involved in giving inmates more rights and freedoms than law-abiding citizens.

    Inmates would be up before daylight, working in job in the prison until the sun went down. Five to six days a week. Doing some job that either supported the prison being self-supporting or helpig support the community.

    No radio, TV or internet. Access to law library or a regular library. Prison should not be a place of luxury. Prison is about punishment and not rehabilitation.

    Prison should be for all intents, a bad experience that a person does not want a return engagement. I an not saying that any inmate should be beat, whipped or tortured in any way, but, worked from sun-up to sun-down, doing honest physical labor. I would suspect that many return to prison from doing the same thing that got them there before, because they have no fear of prison and they know the gameplan.

    You have never been inside a prison have you? They already have access to everything that is available on the outside of prison walls. Inmates can complete high-school and earn a GED. They can attend college classes and get a degree in just about anything but becoming a doctor.

    Socio-economics, or poverty? I believe that is about the second or third time you have referenced that as a reason. You believe that is an underlying cause of drugs or crime? It may be an excuse that some may use, but that isn't the reason in the least. Many commit crimes because they are too lazy to work, or want it now without having to work for it. Or they are supporting a drug habit. And IMO, socio-economics doesn't cut it for drug use. They can't afford the things they need, but they can afford to get drugs? Seriously?

    We are a nation of laws. Those laws are there for a reason for the most part. Whether we agree or disagree with the laws is irrelevant. We don't get to pick and choose as to which ones we will abide, and which ones we are going to disregard. Without laws and enforcement of the laws, and punishment when those laws are broken, you end up with anarchy and chaos. Not order and a mostly peaceful society. Don't like the laws? Then work to get them changed through the process that is lined out to change laws.

    Hard not to be emotional to some degree about drugs. In many ways, the vast majority have in some way come in contact with drugs, or people that have or do use drugs.Those emotions a lot of times influence what people think or believe about drugs, or the way drugs should be treated. Since my "accident" involving a dopehead, who left me permanently injured, my viewpoints and opinions have changed radically since then, as what they were before.

    But tweakers and dopeheads need to work too so they can support their drug habit.

    Prison is already a bad enough experience for people as it is, and I have had some friends of mine that have been to the slammer and they say it sucks, and being a "nation of laws" doesnt mean that the "laws" are morally correct (see gun control as an example of something that isnt morally justifiable) and limiting the rights of prisoners as a whole also impacts your average joe because then politicians will see their citizens as prisoners of their own nation. (see cuba, vietnam, or north korea)
     

    Axxe55

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    As I mentioned earlier, that is theory so commonly spouted that it has become a liberal tripe trope. Here in the PNW it is spouted by those that wish to make excuses for their own weak minded failure to hold others in society responsible for the bad choices those people make. Seattle/Portland/S.F./L.A. are all examples of towns run by people who believe that stuff. They coddle others in society, make excuses for the bad behaviors and problems get exponentially worse.

    If poverty were truly an underlying cause, then ALL or even most people in poverty would be criminals... yet they AREN'T. "Relation is not causation!" IMO family and culture is a better predictor of who will become a law breaker than poverty.

    Next time a crook robs a bank, gets caught, and tells the judge, "But yer honer, ya cain't convict me, I come from poverty", we'll all have a real good laugh.
    With the exception of some violent crimes like some murders, rapes, and similar crimes against people, crime is about greed, or being lazy, or looking for the fast and easy way to getting the things a person wants, with no regard about other people. Some also commit crimes to support a drug use problem.

    I'm pretty sure that making a couple thousand a week is much more attractive to some, selling dope on the corner, than slinging burgers at Mickey D's, making a couple of hundred a week.

    But this comes down to more of what lessons and values that they have been taught growing up and what they place value on. Themselves and their values. or money and material wealth and selling yourself out.
     

    Axxe55

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    in my honest opinion the best you can do in life is watch out for yourself, your own, and your homies, and try to do some good for folks.




    Prison is already a bad enough experience for people as it is, and I have had some friends of mine that have been to the slammer and they say it sucks, and being a "nation of laws" doesnt mean that the "laws" are morally correct (see gun control as an example of something that isnt morally justifiable) and limiting the rights of prisoners as a whole also impacts your average joe because then politicians will see their citizens as prisoners of their own nation. (see cuba, vietnam, or north korea)

    Unless you have been on the inside of prison, then you don't have the first clue. And yes, prison should suck! It should be so unpleasant that a person doesn't want to go back again, and will straighten up their act and get it together.

    Morally, and ethically have not one thing to do with legally. There are many laws that I totally disagree with, but it would be foolish and irresponsible to ignore or disregard them, and knowing that, being outraged if I got caught and went to prison. But people try and justify breaking the law every day in thousands of courts across this country. Lets blame the laws, for people breaking the laws.

    Limiting the rights of prisoners? Again, seriously? Inmates in prisons in the United States, probably have more rights and freedoms that the free citizens outside of the prison walls. And trying to make a comparison to Cuba, or Vietnam, or North Korea isn't even an equitable comparison in the least. Not one of those countries have the same rights as the citizens of our country, so there is no way they would suddenly have anymore rights or freedoms going into one of their prisons. Secondly, we don't live or base our way of life on what other countries are doing. Last I checked, I live in the United States.
     

    A1Oni

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    Unless you have been on the inside of prison, then you don't have the first clue. And yes, prison should suck! It should be so unpleasant that a person doesn't want to go back again, and will straighten up their act and get it together.

    Morally, and ethically have not one thing to do with legally. There are many laws that I totally disagree with, but it would be foolish and irresponsible to ignore or disregard them, and knowing that, being outraged if I got caught and went to prison. But people try and justify breaking the law every day in thousands of courts across this country. Lets blame the laws, for people breaking the laws.

    Limiting the rights of prisoners? Again, seriously? Inmates in prisons in the United States, probably have more rights and freedoms that the free citizens outside of the prison walls. And trying to make a comparison to Cuba, or Vietnam, or North Korea isn't even an equitable comparison in the least. Not one of those countries have the same rights as the citizens of our country, so there is no way they would suddenly have anymore rights or freedoms going into one of their prisons. Secondly, we don't live or base our way of life on what other countries are doing. Last I checked, I live in the United States.

    Prison should be about rehabilitation and punishment, but America is a country about RIGHTS and prisoners are filled with people, Americans should pride themselves on rights for everyone considering we have to bankroll everything in NATO and the UN (which we should stop doing tbh) but saying prisoners get more rights than the average citizen is disingenuous and narrowminded considering there are lots of bad prisons in the US (especially the for profit prisons) and prison in most cases is more of a political tool than it is a tool for the law. I dont see how that isnt hard to understand.
     
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