What can we, as gun owners, advocate for to decrease gun violence in the Us

Axxe55

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Gentlemen, I humbly suggest that everyone sit back, breath deeply for 1 minute, and relax just a bit.

Y'all are both 'making solid hits' with some of the points being made, while missing some context across most of the rest.

You can both be correct on the same topic, while also both missing some crucial perspectives, IMHO.
9ce3ae09a6e4f181fa406110a798caf5.jpg





^Very much so. This is a solid point worthy of immense consideration.




^Dude, your intentions are in the right place, and that last part I quoted is absolutely spot-on; however, there's no going back, and that shouldn't be any part of our goal.

There so much more detail I would like to add, but that level of dissertation isn't something I have spare time for at the moment. Suffice to say, this is an extremely complicated, and overall extremely important topic; one I will likely come back to at some point...



^I didn't look at any of those links provided, so can't comment on them, but I'll leave the following link for you to read. I can assure you, it's very real. PM for more details if you want...



Let's regain our composure and civilized discussion.

Thank you.
Excellent points Cyberwolf. You are correct, that we can't go back fifty or sixty years before the bleeding heart liberals got involved with prisons and prisoner's rights. Realistically, I know it's never going to happen. I also have serious doubts that there will be any type of prison reform, except in some very isolated cases where major corruption or violations of human rights are concerned. Corruption and wrong behavior has existed in probably every prison in this country, in every state at some point in time. And even if going going from state ran prisons, to those ran by private corporations or contractors, it's still going to exist.

My opinion is that any prisoner should have at least the very basic in human rights. Food, roof, clothing and medical when needed, and then put them to work doing something that either benefits running the prison, or the community. IMO, they need nothing beyond those requirements. A prison sentence is not a vacation and they should not be afforded any luxuries that are offered in the free world.
 

Axxe55

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As I have said before, I sit on the middle of the fence on whether it's a good idea to legalize illegal drugs. I have opinions that I held for doing exactly that, before an "accident" attributed to drug use by another person that left me injured, which in some ways, did change my opinions and my perspective.

As many positive things that could happen if drugs were made legal, I suspect there are just as many, if not more that make it a really bad idea.

One argument that keeps coming up, is the war on drugs and how ineffectual it is, and going back to the 1930's and Prohibition and how that never stopped people from drinking alcohol. I agree. The war on drugs is a farce and circus. But the DEA gets millions every year in funding to fight the war on drugs. Does anyone think they are fixing give up that cash cow without a fight? If I had to hazard a guess, I suspect all the drugs seized in a years time, are probably not anywhere near the number that get through into our country. Then factor in the drugs that are produced right here in the country.

Whether they do decide to legalize drugs or not, people are going to use them.
 

CyberWolf

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Excellent points Cyberwolf. You are correct, that we can't go back fifty or sixty years before the bleeding heart liberals got involved with prisons and prisoner's rights. Realistically, I know it's never going to happen. I also have serious doubts that there will be any type of prison reform, except in some very isolated cases where major corruption or violations of human rights are concerned. Corruption and wrong behavior has existed in probably every prison in this country, in every state at some point in time. And even if going going from state ran prisons, to those ran by private corporations or contractors, it's still going to exist.[/b][/b]

Don't give up hope, it isn't beyond reason to think that the problem can be addressed far more effectively than it is currently - the issues are of 'premise' and exposure.

IOW, if defects in the underlying premises or axioms can be identified and corrected for, then there's an element of opportunistically necessary exposure which, if successfully achived, can have actual positive results (most being cumulative in nature).




My opinion is that any prisoner should have at least the very basic in human rights. Food, roof, clothing and medical when needed, and then put them to work doing something that either benefits running the prison, or the community. IMO, they need nothing beyond those requirements. A prison sentence is not a vacation and they should not be afforded any luxuries that are offered in the free world.

I truly wish I had more time to detail my thoughts on this topic, but suffice it to say that I fully agree with most of that, but not the part I've bolded.

A few brief snippets on that:

1. Self-Sustainability is critical, labor is critical; however,

2. There should be no 'useful' labor performed by prisoners in any way, outside of that self-sustainment program. Any labor or other punative action must be clean in purpose.



I propose a thought experiment - Assume for a moment that the following statement is not only true, but is a fundamental axiom which lies at the root of many observable societal conditions which we typically just perceive as "the way things are":

Punishment Should Never Be Bound With Profit In Any Way.

Further, lets assume that any Punative labor should be entirely, and without question, for that singular purpose alone.

---
For example, stamping license plates or cleaning up roadside trash are inherently productive efforts. This provides too convenient of an escape by masking-over the true purpose of the labor.

Digging large holes, however, and then filling them back in, or moving dirt from one pile to another, can neither be mistaken for any other purpose than punishment, nor provide a discreet vehice for off-book revenue or kickbacks.

(This all assumes, of course, that there's some potential for eventual earned reentry into society, another massive rabbit-hole...Otherwise, the current point is moot, and the whole deal is more an issue of logistics and waste disposal.)
---

Back to the thought experiment...Given the stated assumptions, what downstream sociological/cultural effects do you think might be observed?[/b][/b]
 
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BMF500

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Axxe55

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Don't give up hope, it isn't beyond reason to think that the problem can be addressed far more effectively than it is currently - the issues are of 'premise' and exposure.

IOW, if defects in the underlying premises or axioms can be identified and corrected for, then there's an element of opportunistically necessary exposure which, if successfully achived, can have actual positive results (most being cumulative in nature).






I truly wish I had more time to detail my thoughts on this topic, but suffice it to say that I fully agree with most of that, but not the part I've bolded.

A few brief snippets on that:

1. Self-Sustainability is critical, labor is critical; however,

2. There should be no 'useful' labor performed by prisoners in any way, outside of that self-sustainment program. Any labor or other punative action must be clean in purpose.



I propose a thought experiment - Assume for a moment that the following statement is not only true, but is a fundamental axiom which lies at the root of many observable societal conditions which we typically just perceive as "the way things are":

Punishment Should Never Be Bound With Profit In Any Way.

Further, lets assume that any Punative labor should be entirely, and without question, for that singular purpose alone.

---
For example, stamping license plates or cleaning up roadside trash are inherently productive efforts. This provides too convenient of an escape by masking-over the true purpose of the labor.

Digging large holes, however, and then filling them back in, or moving dirt from one pile to another, can neither be mistaken for any other purpose than punishment, nor provide a discreet vehice for off-book revenue or kickbacks.

(This all assumes, of course, that there's some potential for eventual earned reentry into society, another massive rabbit-hole...Otherwise, the current point is moot, and the whole deal is more an issue of logistics and waste disposal.)
---

Back to the thought experiment...Given the stated assumptions, what downstream sociological/cultural effects do you think might be observed?[/b][/b]

Quite excellent and thought provoking post Cyberwolf.

I'm just not optimistic as maybe you are that we will ever see positive changes or reform in our penal systems. I also think that the judicial system needs a much change and reform as well that would go hand in hand with prison reform.

I'll try and address the second part of your post.

IIRC, Texas is one of the few states penal systems that approach self-sustainability in this country. Or at least they use to. Most products used by inmates was made or farmed on the prison units. They farmed cotton for clothing that was typically sewn in the women's prison units. They grew vegetables that were for food, as well as beef and pork. The leather hides were used for shoes and boots made in the prison leather shops. Even some of the construction of new prisons were performed by prison labor. Labor is essential without a doubt.

Prison labor should not be punitive simply for the sake of being punishment. That IMO borders on cruel and unusual punishment and is unacceptable. Prison should be for the most part for the ability of the prison to sustain itself and have a less burden of taxes provided by the community.

It seemed we differed a bit on the community part of the prison being useful. My ideas for that would be that prisons have a multitude of crafts and services within their facilities. Those could be put to use for various community projects close to the prisons. Playground equipment for local schools. Shelving for local schools and libraries. Ect. Prison labor should never IMO be used for profits. That, it seems you and do agree on.

Your thought experiment! Without a question, profits should never be the motive or reason behind prison labor. That is just wrong, and IMO, reeks of just another form of servitude, or slavery of the inmates.

Labor simply for the sake of being punishment is wrong as well. IMO I think it breeds contempt, and hatred of those who are in charge and offers no positive benefits of any type. I think it serves no purpose other than for the pleasure of those making the inmates perform the work, for which there is no reason for in the first place. it is also a very poor use of potential labor that could be used in positive manner.

The downstream effects? Leads me back to the saying. "Idle hands are the Devil's workshop." People with too much time on their hands, have way too much time to think of ways to get into trouble. Hard work is good for the body as well as the mind.

A lot of former inmates have learned valuable skills inside prison which can then be used outside of prison to lead a productive life once back in society. That learning a trade or skill, can lead to a lesser chance of them committing new crimes and returning to prison.
 

Sasquatch

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I've made no bones - I sit on the "legalize, tax, and regulate" side of the argument about drugs BUT

As as been pointed out - there are pros and cons that go with any course of action. The state I was born and raised in decided last election to decriminalize hard drugs. What has happened since?


//https://www.instagram.com/p/CR-M4tRFyUu/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Not sure if that link will embed here or not, but that's just one video taken recently.

Here's a couple more:


//https://www.instagram.com/p/CR4vEKchhrk/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Screenshot 2021-07-31 at 10-36-33 We document, You decide ( portlandlookslikeshit) • Instagram...png


Screenshot 2021-07-31 at 08-31-38 We document, You decide ( portlandlookslikeshit) • Instagram...png


These are recent videos and stills taken from Portland. Portland has battled homelessness for a long time thanks to the dipshits in city and state government who make it a welcoming environment for the lazy, the addicted, and the mentally unwell to just come and hang out.

Since decriminalization / legalization efforts, the number has shot up.

I continued to work up until the day before we left Oregon for good last year. Working in the Portland metro area, I saw this shit grow. Residential neighborhoods - formerly solid working class places that were clean are now over-run with tents, needles, and crime.

At least for a while the police were able to sweep the streets every morning, roust the bums and allow for the free flow of pedestrian traffic and business during daylight hours. By six PM every night the tents were errected. Back then, it was just *some* areas that saw entire city blocks lined with tents and literal human shit. Now its more and more and more.

Portland makes San Francisco look clean. Its a god damned Mad Max world there, and even lefty/liberal types are outraged over the woke radicals who put the policies into place that lead to this. They got what they voted for, but they didn't really know what they were voting for.

This is the down side to legalization, when you just legalize or decriminalize drugs WITHOUT personal responsibility and accountability for your actions.

Oregon is in a drought. There are burn bans in effect - but as so many commentators have pointed out "they only apply to the tax paying law abiding people - not the bums and the druggies" - the city of Portland itself has seen dozens of fires in the last couple weeks because homeless druggies set shit on fire on purpose, or by negligence.

The first video link, if it didn't show up, is of a zombie RV parked in the middle of downtown Portland, the driver OD'd while driving.

The city council, mayor, and DA have given these people a free pass to do the shit, and not be held responsible. No charges when they commit crimes. They're free to camp wherever they want. The police are essentially powerless and overwhelmed, not to mention they have city council members screaming to defund them, so they're not exactly amped to be proactive anymore.

When I say "legalize, tax, and regulate' I mean it. Not just legalization, but taxation and regulation for safety of the user and the public at large. Sell the shit thru dispensaries or whatever you want to call it - so it can be taxed and the monies collected directed to public safety measures. Regulate it - where / when it can be sold, by whom (licensed agents, not street corner slangers) and crack down on public intoxication / DWI, etc.

If someone can be functional while addicted - whatever. If they go home and "party" after work, without harming others, that's their business. What an adult puts into their body is no concern of mine until it harms someone else - and that harm can be physical or financial.

If you commit crimes to support your habit - you should get a nice lengthy, unpleasant stay in prison.

If you commit crimes while you're high - you should get a nice lengthy, unpleasant stay in prison.

If you commit crimes while you're sober - you should get a nice lengthy, unpleasant stay in prison.

Drug treatment programs should be available for those who need / want them, but I'm under no illusion that most drug addicts want the help. Court-ordered drug treatment isn't a bad thing, but court-ordered treatment also isn't the same as self-sought treatment, and no doubt those who go aren't going to make the decision to stop being addicted as often as those who have actually hit rock bottom personally and decided to make the change on their own.

One thing I think I would do though - and maybe its cold and uncaring, but I would outright BAN the use of narcan to save someone who's OD'd. They made the choice to get high, let them suffer. Will it cause pain to their family after the loss? No doubt. But their family likely already is in pain watching and interacting with the addict, and maybe, just maybe they will be better in the long run to let the addict OD and move on.

Maybe we need to look at drug addiction like other forms of mental illness too, and if a person winds up convicted of drug addiction related offenses say two or three times - they should just be sent to a funny farm or the mental-health wing of a prison and kept there until they are no longer a threat to others thru their addiction. Note I said others - another possibly cold, unpopular opinion - if a person wishes to end their lives, I say let them, at least if they're an adult. Its damn painful for the family - in fact my sister just lost a brother in law to suicide a month ago, and her sister (the one whose husband killed himself) died in a drunk-driving accident because she was drunk/high and rolled her car. ITs damn painful, and their three kids are going through the wringer - but they've been dealing for a year+ with both parents abandoning them because of addiction. The kids might actually be better off with their grandma raising them than if mom & dad were still around, because they're not going to be living in filth, they're not going to be forgotten, or abandoned anymore.

"Society" has gotten too soft to the point where "we" think we have to save everyone from themselves. The only thing we need to save people from is the bad decisions and criminal actions of others.

When I look at the shit that is going down in Oregon due to decriminalization of hard drugs, it gives me pause to think that maybe instead of ending the war on drugs, we need to ramp it up 10X. Maybe Duarte in the Philippines has the right idea (probably not, but its the other end of the spectrum from decriminalizing the stuff)

Addiction runs rampant in my family. Alcohol and drugs. It runs so hard in our genes that I made the decision when I was a teen not even to drink socially, because of the fear that I'd go down that path of addiction myself. I don't begrudge others from drinking - but its something I'll never do because I don't want to even risk seeing what kind of monster I could turn into if I let myself go down that path. My mom's twin sister is a life long addict. I've got an uncle that has spent over half of his adult life in prison for drug related crimes. Another uncle died homeless on the streets of Seattle due to his substance abuse issues.

I don't think there's a perfect solution - but I know the solution will never be simply decriminalizing shit WITHOUT holding people responsible for their actions like we're seeing on the left coast. I'd support a harsh crackdown on drugs before I ever supported the shit that's going on there now.
 
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